720505 - Conversation - Kyoto

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

720505R1-KYOTO - May 05, 1972 - 46:07 Minutes

Pradyumna: (reading from dictionary) "Chance." It's a noun and adjective. "1. The way things fall out. Fortune, undesigned occurrence, opportunity, possibility, probability. Especially in plural, as 'the chances are against him.' Absence of design or discoverable cause. Course of events regarded as a power, fate. 'By chance': as it falls or fell out, without design. 'On the chance': in view of the possibility. 'Take one's chance': let things go as they may; consent to take what comes."

Prabhupāda: So it can be adjusted with the meanings of chance and necessity. I want something; that is my necessity. And it will come by chance? Or I have to endeavor for it, and then I get it? Shall I depend on chance? I have a necessity for something. So should I wait for the chance?

Śyāmasundara: We've always been taught, "No. You must work very hard toward . . ."

Prabhupāda: So where is the waiting for chance? There is plan. If I have to work to get the thing, then it is plan.

Pradyumna: If they follow their philosophy to the conclusion . . . they would have to be completely dependent, if they followed the philosophy to the conclusion.

Prabhupāda: If the chance comes as soon as the necessity is there, then we have to admit immediately God.

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yes. Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā we hear, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam (BG 15.15), God is in everyone's heart, as Supersoul. Now, I am thinking of getting something. So God knows immediately that, "He wants to have this," so He gives me the necessary thing, which appear to me as chance without knowing God. The things are supplied by God because He is giving me all facilities to enjoy this material world to my heart's content by supplying all the ingredients. That is the material condition.

So these foolish persons are taking as chance, but it is not chance. God is omnipotent. As soon as He understands that I want this, He gives me some facility so that I get it. So it is not chance. It is by arrangement of superior authority. But because they are atheist, they have no sense of God consciousness, they are taking as chance, that necessity creates that chance; automatically it is coming. Not automatically.

Chance does not mean automatically. I cannot see something, but all of a sudden falls . . . j ust like I am hungry, I want some food. So Kṛṣṇa knows it that you want some . . . some way or other, the food comes to me. So it is the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa, but I see it is chance: "I was hungry, and by chance the food has come." That is my less intelligence. It is not chance; it is plan. Otherwise, you cannot adjust the meaning of chance in that way, that as soon as there is necessity, immediately the opportune chance comes before us.

Śyāmasundara: They say: "Well, it's my luck," or "My bad luck."

Prabhupāda: Yes. They say. So this "luck," as soon as you say, "luck" there must be somebody who is giving you the luck, good luck or bad luck.

Śyāmasundara: One man may desire something very badly, and his whole life long he will not get it. He will always say: "Oh, I am so unlucky."

Prabhupāda: Because he is not fit to get it, so God does not supply it. So we do not take anything as chance. We take everything as plan. But because God's omnipotency is so subtle, we cannot see how things happen. Therefore we say: "It is a chance, chance of physical arrangement." Just like in the airport, as soon I step on the door it becomes opened. It is not chance. A child will see it is a chance: "Oh, how it is? I wanted to go, and the door is already opened." He takes it a chance. That is poor fund of knowledge. There is arrangement, nice arrangement, electrical arrangement.

So to a poor fund of knowledge it becomes a chance, and to the sober mind it is not chance; it is arranged by higher authority. Another opposite point is nobody wants to die. Why the chance of death comes? Nobody wants to die. If that argument is taken, necessity—I want to die, and the death comes—then it is applicable. But I do not want to die. Why death comes? There is no necessity of my death, but why the death comes? Then where this argument will be?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, there's no necessity. There's no necessity for death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die. So why death comes?

Śyāmasundara: But they will say that because it is physically worn out, finished, material is finished, then it will die.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is a question of chance and necessity. Nobody feels the necessity of death. Why death comes, unless it is planned?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Their argument is that physical necessity creates a chance, and we take advantage of the chance. But here there is no necessity. Nobody wants to die, nobody wants disease. Why these chances are coming to us without any necessity?

Śyāmasundara: If, for instance, in nature they saw a tree growing, they would say that by necessity this tree must die in order to replenish the soil so more trees can grow.

Prabhupāda: Then there is plan. As soon as you say that more trees can grow, that means there is plan. You cannot say chance.

Śyāmasundara: Nature can't be chance. If so many plants . . .

Prabhupāda: That plan is Kṛṣṇa's. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My plan, under My superintendence, the nature is working. The changes of the world is going on for that reason." Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate: "All these changes are taking place on account of My supervision." So there is no question of chance. It is all planned, planned by the Supreme, daiva netreṇa, by superior arrangement.

Śyāmasundara: Doesn't necessity mean plan? Necessity?

Prabhupāda: Necessity means for a foolish person like me, I want something. That is my necessity, and God supplies me. "Man proposes, God disposes." And that reception, or that my achievement, being without explained by me, I take it as a chance. Because I cannot explain it, therefore I take . . . just like the same example: the flower is fructifying. We are saying because we do not see how the working is going on.

Śyāmasundara: Like you defined "miracle" like that before once.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nothing like miracle. Everything is done. But it is done so, I mean to say, subtle way that we cannot understand. We take it chance. The same example—just like a child steps before the door, it opens. He thinks, "Oh, by chance the door is opened." But it is not by chance. It is a plan.

Śyāmasundara: By necessity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Necessity you have to go, and it is already done. And as soon as you step on the floor, the door opens. So those who are less intelligent, they are taking it as chance that, "I came here. I wanted to go out. The door is by chance open." That is less intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So before the necessity, there is a plan. Previous to the necessity there is a plan. I see.

Prabhupāda: No, before the necessity, whoever will feel necessity, the chance is there, the arrangement is there. He knows that . . . just like there may be hundreds and thousands of necessities, and for each necessity there is a planned performance.

Śyāmasundara: There is that saying: "Where there is a will there is a way."

Prabhupāda: But we . . . you can think of this willingness in different hundred and thousands of ways. That is known to God, and there is already plan. If somebody wills like that, the chance is given. This is plan.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's right.

Prabhupāda: Because God knows beyond this willing orbit, nobody can think of. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He thought that, "I can save myself by this way. I shall not die at night, in daytime, or I shall not die in the sky. I shall not die in the water. I shall not die on land. No man can kill me. No animal can kill me. No demigod can kill me." In this way he thought, "Oh." But still, keeping all the promises, he was made to die. So there is no such thing as chance without plan.

Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of "necessity." It says that, "It is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be . . . God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. He thinks, "Oh, so . . ." (break) It is different types. (break)

The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities.

Bhūrijana: The difference is that the human living entities have higher intelligence because of their body.

Prabhupāda: That is the question that, "Who has given you high intelligence and not to the rats and cats?"

Pradyumna: You said in one place, "Man is the architect of his own happiness and distress."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is an axiomatic truth even by the modern man. Yes that, "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So as soon as there is work to make your fortune, then there must be a person to decide to give you a fortunate position. Just like in an establishment, so many men are working, but there is a president. He is considering the work file, "How this man has worked?" And he is being promoted, his salary is being increased; and somebody is degraded, no promotion, rather, transferred in some other place.

So natural conclusion is when there are so many varieties of life in our presence, and they are, although in the same place, they haven't got the same facility, so there must be somebody who decides on this point. So how you can deny God? Our point is the Supreme Person, the president, who decides on this fact, He is God. What is the opposite answer?

Pradyumna: They would say that you are in your position and they are in their position just by chance, just like . . .

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. This is sheer nonsense. There is nothing by chance. What is that chance? By chance one is becoming millionaire, and a chance, one is becoming cockroaches. What is that chance? Explain that chance. It is evasive. It is most foolish reply, "Chance." We have got this nice apartment. Is it by chance?

Pradyumna: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Bhūrijana: There's never an example of chance.

Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. People are befooled by all this philosophy.

Bhūrijana: Albert Einstein, he said that, "I cannot believe that the highest material principle is chance." He's a material scientist. He said: "I cannot believe."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Actually, if one is actually learned, scientific, he must admit. He must admit, unless he is a lunatic, rascal. He will say all these nonsense things, "Chance." Why chance? What is taking place within your practical experience by chance? If by prearrangement we would not come here, then who would care for it? Even on the street we could not lie down. Nobody allow. The police will arrest: "Who are these men?" How do you say chance?

Everything is done by prearrangement. The chance is an explanation given by the rascals and fools. They are not sane men. There cannot be anything by chance. We got up on the train, and the train is running, and it is all chance? There is a huge management behind the train. Therefore we are comfortably seated, and we come to the destination right in the time. All these are chances? What is that . . .? He has written such a big book. What is his reason that chance? What reason he has given? I have not read. You have read?

Pradyumna: No.

Śyāmasundara: Well, necessity . . . necessity . . .

Prabhupāda: Necessity means I arrange. There was a necessity to come to this city, so he arranged. So how it is chance?

Śyāmasundara: They would . . . their answer is that there was a necessity to go to the city, so we would have tried hundreds of different ways to come here, and by chance, eventually we would have found the . . .

Prabhupāda: No. We have not tried hundreds of others. There was a plan.

Sudāmā: But even where does . . . in my mind, if I hear the word "chance," where does chance . . . how does chance come about, if there is such a thing?

Prabhupāda: No. The rascal says that I am trying in so many ways; one of them by chance becomes favorable. But I am not working in so many ways. We had a plan, to come here, to preach. So according to that plan, we arranged with this man. And it is not chance; it is all prearranged. Where is that I am trying this way or that way? We are going to preach. There is a plan. So our men go before that, before my reaching there, and they make nice arrangement, nice apartment. Then they receive me. These are not chances. This is all prearranged, plan.

Bhūrijana: They say that . . . but they don't acknowledge the plan.

Prabhupāda: Why they don't acknowledge? Everything is being done by plan. The rascal who is speaking like that, he is educated by a plan, by his parents. And therefore he is able now to talk nonsense and get the Nobel Prize for talking all these rascals. His education was planned.

Sudāmā: Just like his book was planned, so now he is given the Nobel Prize. He won't say: "By chance I won."

Prabhupāda: Yes. His plan to misguide the people, that is a plan.

Bhūrijana: They say that change is the principle. They say that change is the highest principle, and out of so many different changes . . .

Prabhupāda: No. How the change takes place?

Bhūrijana: Change. Change. C-h-a-n-g-e.

Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old? What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledg, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see?

We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is Brahminical qualification. A Brāhmin will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A Śūdra will accept, because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between Brāhmin and Śūdra. It is not a caste system. It is classi . . . guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali-yuga everyone is Śūdra, so he does not know what is the actually Brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done? I am as good as he is, and why he should be called Brāhmin, he should be given greater facility?"

So actually it has happened so. A so-called Brāhmin, caste Brāhmin, he is working his intelligence like Śūdra, and he is claiming, by birthright, Brāhmin. There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes Brāhmin. That is the injunction of the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a Brāhmin? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga. He never said: "By birth." Never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. "In this age, Kali-yuga, all Śūdras." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the Śūdras.

Śyāmasundara: Cheaply and at once?

Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that, "Mr. such-and-such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten-cent-worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān (BG 9.25): "One who can . . . one can go to the demigods' planet by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān, as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me," mad yājino 'pi yānti mām. So they never worshiped Candra, and how they can go to the Candra planet, moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect; they become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest.

Sudāmā: They have not gone.

Prabhupāda: They have not gone. We have got our test. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see, even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simply planning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shall have defense from there." Simply bluffing. Simply bluffing. The Americans should go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsense proposal. What defense they will do from there? Is it not the proposal? Yes.

Śyāmasundara: This morning you were saying that civilization means peace. So this is no civilization.

Prabhupāda: This is no civilization.

Bhūrijana: We must become convinced.

Prabhupāda: Thing, so Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said:

jaḍa-vidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava

tomāra bhajane bādhā

anitya soṁsāre moha janamiyā

jībake karaye gādhā

Jaḍa-vidyā, this material advancement, jaḍa vidyā, they are simply stumbling blocks for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The more one is enamored by this so-called material advancement, the more he is disqualified to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because time we have got limited. If we waste our time for so-called material advantages, then we spoil our time. We cannot utilize the time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is the necessity of human life.

Therefore, in the history of India there is opulence, but that opulence is of different kind. By nature they used to enjoy life—enough jewels, enough gold, enough silk, enough food, enough metals. You see? By natural product. They could find where there is a big hill of gold only. These are there. And actually gold is found in some mine within the material arrangement. Why there should not be any hill of gold? As there are hills of stone and marble, why not gold? You do not know. Your utensils are only plastic, which is worth nothing.

So that was their material advancement: gold, silver, jewels, corals, sapphire, diamond. Just see Kṛṣṇa's palace described. Not these rascal chairs, cushions, but with ivory, gold. And the cushion is as soft as the foam of milk. (laughter) These things are description there. And the rooms are bedecked with jewels. You don't require this electric light at night. And outside, these parijāta flowers. You have read all this?

Pradyumna: Mandara-kuṇḍa.

Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo, Kobe, in Japan . . . there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working, and they are living in this nice buildings. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not?

Bhānu: It is true.

Prabhupāda: Then where is your advancement? You supply everyone palatial building like this. Why they are living in the matchboxes? Why they are eating cats and dogs? One thing, if you don't believe in God, then you give them. But you cannot give. Then who has given them? Nobody wants to live in the matchbox. Why he is living in the matchbox and you are living in a nice house? Is it all a chance?

He is not struggling? He is not making his plan that, "I shall also live," just like the Communists. But he could not. We went to Moscow. They have no nice building made by the Communist people. All big, big, old buildings that is made, constructed by Czar. Not a single building I saw which was constructed by the Communist government.

Śyāmasundara: They all live in matchboxes too.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: In Russia?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you . . . even if you are able to give everyone nice building and nice motorcar . . . already a few motorcars you have got, there is scarcity of space, from practical point of view. Ninety-nine percent of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motorcars, it has created problem—where to park the motorcar? How to supply petrol?

Śyāmasundara: In America now practically everyone has a house and a car. But now the problem is no one wants to work.

Prabhupāda: That's it. (laughs) Just see. And he is satisfied to remain as urchin, the hippies.

Devotees: Yes. The sons.

Prabhupāda: They feel pleasure to remain as an urchin.

Sudāmā: As their father supplies them with money and motorcar.

Pradyumna: He built this house, and this house had a very nice view over the whole place. But another man built another building here. And now the view is . . . right next to, he built this building. That's why this apartment is vacant.

Śyāmasundara: No one will live here. The apartments are vacant.

Sudāmā: He's losing money.

Śyāmasundara: Someone has built in front of him.

Pradyumna: He had view over whole city. This was the biggest building, I think, and he said he had view everywhere. Now someone built one right up, right next to him.

Bhūrijana: In the United States, the most amazing thing is that everyone is envious. The general population is envious of the hippies because they all want to do that. The ones who are working so hard, they want to be the ones who are just getting fed and do nothing and enjoy sex. This is . . . but then when the hippies have it, they say bad things about them.

Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not . . .

Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all.

Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification, and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising.

Prabhupāda: That we have . . . we say in our śāstra that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs—better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. You see? Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately, "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification.

Sudāmā: So better to become hog and dog.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The hog . . . the hog has no restriction, mother, sister or anyone. You have seen?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The child hog is raising on the body of the mother, although a child. They are so sexually inclined. Sometimes they are having sexual intercourse with the mother. So you take this facility. If you want better facility for sex life, just become hog. So nature is giving the facility: "All right, come on. You eat anything, without any discrimination. Here is stool. And you can have sex life without any discrimination, your mother or sister. Come on."

Śyāmasundara: So the hippies have adopted that philosophy, hog philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They have sex life anywhere, anytime, anyone.

Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many books, they are advocating that, "You can have sex life. It doesn't matter whether it is mother or sister or daughter. Why should be the restriction there? It is bodily necessity, that's all." They are advocating. There are so many books. You do not know? Huh?

Sudāmā: Yes, there are.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are books. In India, what to speak of other, in India some European or American book was written on the theme that a man fell in love with his daughter. And that book is the greatest . . . highest selling book. What is that book? You know?

Śyāmasundara: Lolita? There was one, Lolita it was called, about . . .

Sudāmā: The same theme.

Śyāmasundara: The same theme.

Sudāmā: It was also very popular in America.

Śyāmasundara: One of the most popular books of all. Some man and a twelve-year-old niece, nephew, daughter?

Pradyumna: Adopted daughter. Step-daughter.

Prabhupāda: Adopted daughter, niece, we have practically seen. I knew one man, Gupta. Gurudāsa met him in Delhi. So he was old man, about four years younger than me, very rich man. So I used to visit sometimes his house. He was friendly. So one day I saw one young girl. So I enquired, "Who is this young girl?" "No, she is my adopted daughter. I have no . . ."

He had no daughters—all sons, grown up. "So I have no daughter, so I have adopted her as my daughter." I thought, "That's all right." Some day after, one day I went there, I saw that his wife was not there. So his wife has left home on some complaint. And then I understood that that man was implicated with that daughter. So the wife, under protest, has left.

There are many rascals who open girls' schools with the contract with the head mistress that she will supply young girls. Convent school. This is going on. So all these greatness are terminating in sex life, and they are making arrangement, plan. And he says there is no plan. Even for his ordinary living he is making plan, and he says there is no plan.

Śyāmasundara: So because they want better and better sex life, they have to compete and get better and better apartments. Because the nice girls will not go to the shabby apartment. They will only go to a nice apartment.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Night girls.

Śyāmasundara: Nice girls, nicer, more beautiful girls will only go to the most beautiful apartment. So there is competition.

Sudāmā: Everyone is competing. Now the girls, they want handsome man, so man is trying to get his face fixed and buy new clothes and . . .

(laughter)

Prabhupāda: Trying to keep himself young.

Sudāmā: Trying to keep himself young, yes.

Bhūrijana: So we must propagate your message very loud.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhūrijana: Very loud. We must sing Hare Kṛṣṇa very loud . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhūrijana: . . . so everyone can hear. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end)