750103 - Conversation - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

750103R1-BOMBAY - January 03, 1975 - 56:34 Minutes

Devotee: . . . volume two. That was from Jayatīrtha. This is actually the most complete report. Everything else is additional to this. It is very, uh, all the details. "My Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, Please accept my worthless obeisances at your divine lotus feet. I pray that by your divine mercy I will obtain unquestioning faith in your instructions. It appears from all evidence of the revealed scriptures that it is in this way only my spiritual life will develop and mature. I have been in Hawaii now for one week, and I beg to issue the following report." This is dated December 22nd.

"1. The history: I have been aware for some time that Sudāmā was having spiritual difficulties, since in September he had flown to Los Angeles to see me. At that time he was on the verge of blooping due to an illicit homosexual affair with his servant that had been going on for some months. I preached to him and tried to encourage him as much as possible. A few days later . . ."

Prabhupāda: Oh, he admitted that, Sudāmā?

Devotee: Yeah, Yeah. He also said later that he had admitted that to you. Did he?

Prabhupāda: What? He said that . . .

Devotee: He had broken a principle.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, like that . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: "A few . . ."

Prabhupāda: He is conscious of his sinful activities.

Devotee: Yes. "A few days later I flew to Māyāpur to see you in regards to Bali-mardana, etc., and I had planned to visit Hawaii on the way back to Los Angeles to see how Sudāmā was doing. Unfortunately, Sudāmā was on the U.S. mainland, and when I landed in Hawaii, so I could not talk with him to see if his condition had improved. After returning to Los Angeles I tried to contact him, but he proved to be very elusive. When I finally did get hold of him, he told me that he had just returned from Māyāpur, that everything was all right with him, and that he had admitted his homosexual affair to you and that you had given him permission to work independently of the GBC."

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Gurukṛpā: He told me that also.

Prabhupāda: He, told . . .

Gurukṛpā: He came to Japan on his way to Hawaii, and he told me that.

Prabhupāda: He . . . he came to Māyāpur for this reason.

Gurukṛpā: He said that you had told him that, he only had . . .

Prabhupāda: He can say anything. How do you believe it?

Gurukṛpā: It wasn't my concern, because I was only in Japan.

Prabhupāda: And how others will believe it? He'll say that he has supported my homosex and . . .

Devotee: He can say anything.

Prabhupāda: Rascal. Rascal. Once one becomes rascal, he becomes more and more and more and more and more. So I have no information whether he admitted or not. He simply tendered that it is not yet finished, prepared, so if you come then I will have to arrange like this. No other place. You were present there?

Devotee: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: That means he told his plan, to come here, that "I have taken permission."

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla . . ."

Prabhupāda: This is completely false. Rather, I told Brahmānanda that that cannot be. He cannot act independently. There is no question.

Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Jagadīśa and Hṛdayānanda dāsa."

Prabhupāda: But how this is . . . this is another nonsense. How did you believe him? He came to me, and he reported in his own way, and why you became so foolish that to believe him? Where is my written statement?

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: He, he will tell according to his convenience, but how did he believe it? Without asking me, and without my confirmation, now they began to consult Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Their first foolishness is "How did he believe him?" Ask him like that, that "How did you ?" You did not ask me whether it is fact; now you are reporting, and you began to consult amongst yourselves.

Gurukṛpā: This is in September.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Yes in . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no intelligence that he said whether it is fact. He should have asked me, that "Sudāmā has told me like this," and whether it is fact. So without asking me they began to consult. What is the meaning?

Gurukṛpā: So they consulted. They discussed the matter between themselves, and concluded . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the matter? There is no subject matter they consulted. Just see, this kind of intelligent . . . unintelligent class of men we have in our society. How these things are remain . . . (indistinct) . . . they have no intelligence. So now we are discussing on the subject matter whether it is a subject matter to be discussed. They have no sense of . . . how I can manage? He came; he came; he came—spoiling money. What can I do? How did he take the subject matter to be discussed? Where is the subject matter? Ask him: without asking me, how you took it as a subject matter for discussion. You know that he has gone astray, you can say so many lies, and I would support it, homosex.

Gurukṛpā: Much of this could have been avoided if he would have . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: This could have been avoided . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gurukṛpā: . . . all this stealing and mismanagement, if he would have been stopped in September, when he first announced.

Prabhupāda: How can I know?

Gurukṛpā: You did not . . .

Prabhupāda: The GBC was there. He was GBC! Nobody informed me what is going on.

Devotee: Jayatīrtha says he knew.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: Jayatīrtha said that he knew he was in difficulty, but he tried to stop and see him, but he was being elusive. He was . . . he stopped at Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: He was elusive to him, and what he said about seeing me, that was correct. Just see! He knew that he is elusive, and still, whatever he said, that "I am sinful. What Swami has said, like this, I do." That is not elusive. That is corrupt. This class of intelligence, how they can manage? They have no common sense, then how can I believe this rascal? I have taken him as elusive. Then, how can I take him that whatever he says is all right? And now, let us consult. Just see! It is very difficult. Where is the subject matter now they began to consult? What do you think?

Gurukṛpā: I think he should have informed you.

Prabhupāda: At least it should have been confirmed that, yes, he, "Oh, I said like this."

Devotee (3): It should have been in writing. Without it in writing . . .

Gurukṛpā: Last year when I received one letter from Karāndhara, I came to you and asked you, "Did you write that?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: Because I was doubting. And it was a fact that he had put in some of his own words there.

Prabhupāda: That is what I say, "Consult."

Gurukṛpā: Well, they said they consulted, and we concluded that since you were going to come here in December that we would leave things until you arrived.

Prabhupāda: So everything else, what did you do when you asked him? Did Sudāmā say like this?

Devotee: That was two months . . . that was September, and he said that since you were coming in December then we will leave it. "So we suggested to Sudāmā that Kīrtanānanda Swami be allowed to come to Hawaii to see how things were going and to enliven the devotees, but Sudāmā . . ."

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said to Brahmānanda that I cannot go on this Bombay after, you go. Things are not going nice there. And Brahmānanda was advised . . . I think too that we consulted that Guru-kṛpā should be in charge.

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You know that?

Gurukṛpā: That was . . .

Prabhupāda: That was my advice. Then?

Devotee: "Sudāmā was adamant that no GBC man should come."

Prabhupāda: Ha.

Devotee: "After receiving Brahmānanda Swami's telegram saying that still Sudāmā did not want you to come, I called Sudāmā and demanded an explanation. He claims that actually he did not . . . he did want you to come, but he was short of funds. I promised to help with the funds, and he seemed satisfied. I then telegrammed Your Divine Grace that it was all right to come. Two days later, Sudāmā called me in Portland and told me he was resigning the next day, and that I should come immediately. I also received a call from one of the older brahmacārīs here, saying that the situation was very bad and all the temple leaders had resigned, including Sudāmā and Subala dāsa . . . or Subala Swami, and that they were actively preaching to influence the devotees to move out of the temple and live independently. After hearing this, I immediately came and also invited Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, who was in Los Angeles at the time, to come. Upon arrival we immediately began to preach very strongly about the necessities of strictly following the instructions of the spiritual master. Those who are very sincere have stayed on, but about a dozen devotees left with Sudāmā. They are operating the restaurant that was given to the society by Alfred Ford after having arranged legally to have the ownership transferred into their names."

Prabhupāda: How Alfred was induced to transfer in their names?

Devotee: Well, he explains that a little bit later, because I think there is this one boy named Atulānanda, who is Sudāmās closest friend, one of his closest friends. And he is actually the person who is an old friend of Alfred Ford's since childhood. And I think he is the one who has been doing all the negotiations.

Prabhupāda: So . . . a man becomes confidential devotee because there is something cheap. How such things can become. Then?

Devotee: "Number 2. What they are preaching: I cannot claim to fully understand what they are preaching, but I will try to explain it as best I can. First of all, they are outspokenly against ISKCON's leadership and are outspokenly against our tactics on saṅkīrtana book distribution as well as what they claim are deplorable conditions in the temples. They agree that the basic principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as taught by you, are the first-class method, but that it is too much difficult to be followed by people in the West. Therefore they think that since it is too difficult to follow strictly, that they should move out of the temple, get a job, etc. One of them, Jamadagni dāsa, who is their leader, told one of our brahmacāriṇīs, "If you are having a hard time in the temple you should move outside, get a boyfriend, go to the movies, etc."

Prabhupāda: The thing is, now this attitude is . . . Bali-mardana is also like this. They want relaxation, flexibility.

Devotee: Flexibility.

Prabhupāda: That means that spiritually fallen, fallen down. Then what else?

Devotee: "The most disturbing thing they are saying is that Your Grace is perfect spiritually but not materially; that is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa . . ."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That "perfect spiritually" means the materially rejected.

Devotee: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Devotee: "That is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa, but that you may not know how best to engage each person, that you can't see everyone in all places and time, and that therefore so many discrepancies exist within the ISKCON structure; that the structure and its leadership cannot be at all trusted, and that it therefore provides no shelter. Of course, they still claim to be your disciples, but they admit they cannot follow your instructions."

Prabhupāda: What kind of disciples? They accept, "You are spiritual master," but "I cannot follow your instructions." That means this GBC's failure. I wanted the GBC. They are themselves fallen, victim. Not very well carried out. This GBC was meant for vigilance, that every, everything is going on nicely according to the instruction. They themselves . . . Karāndhara? Then?

Devotee: "Sudāmā, for example, is planning on starting a dance troupe. When asked what he would do if Your Divine Grace asked him to do something else instead, he said: "I would have to do it anyway." In summary, it seems to me at least that they are minimizing the value of the spiritual master's instructions and at the same time, when we attack them on that same point, they deny it and claim rather that we're just fanatics, impersonal, etc. Actually we have tried to be nice to them, but at the same time we have tried to keep the philosophical points clear so that the devotees will not become bewildered."

Prabhupāda: Hm. Then?

Devotee: "Number 3. The land situation: Of course we are living on the land, and the Deities are installed. We have been making your quarters ready, and I hope that you will be pleased with them. The land has been completely paid off by Alfred Ford, and he will also pay all property taxes. He had offered to lease us the land for a dollar per year and at the same time to turn over one-third ownership yearly to ISKCON until it was completely in our name."

Prabhupāda: Let it . . . let it be done in writing.

Devotee: Yes, he, he . . . I'll just go on reading. He requests that, "He had to do this rather than give it outright for tax reasons. The problem is that Alfred Ford's main contact with ISKCON has been through Atulānanda dāsa, Alfred's lifetime friend. But now Atulānanda has gone with Sudāmā, and Sudāmā has told me that you do not want the property in ISKCON's name."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Whatever he says, it is all right. Then what, who's next?

Devotee: Well, he is . . . "Sudāmā also reports that Alfred is not pleased with ISKCON, does not trust ISKCON, etc. Also on several occasions they have made veiled threats, like "We can have you all thrown off the property in a minute." "

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: They are saying, Sudāmā and his men are saying to the devotees, "We can have you all thrown off this property in a minute." Because they have the connection with Alfred Ford.

Prabhupāda: Ha. So he . . . he is creating some impression of ISKCON. That was his policy, so that the property can be given in his name as he has taken the restaurant.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That was his plan, therefore he did not like that I should go there.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That I understand. Or any GBC go there. That is the whole plan.

Devotee: He goes on to say that, "At any rate it seems difficult to put too much into developing the property unless we have some assurance one way or another that Alfred Ford will not ask us to leave. The land is the absolute manifestation of paradise, so it would be very nice if it could be kept."

Prabhupāda: So, write one letter to Alfred that this is the position. Or? Shall I write to him or not?

Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then it will only be Sudāmā's speaking with him.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: He may . . . he may get them to change it over, very easily.

Prabhupāda: Huh? He is doing that?

Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then Sudāmā will be the only one that will influence him.

Prabhupāda: You write to him, that "Sudāmā has left our camp; he has nothing to do with ISKCON. He has nothing to be recognized. He has his own plan. So under the circumstances I want to see you." What shall I write? He, he may poisioned?

Devotee: It looks as if they have already poisoned him some, because according to Sudāmā he doesn't trust ISKCON. He doesn't . . . he is not pleased with ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: So.

Devotee: But I think that he is definitely submissive to yourself.

Prabhupāda: So I can . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: This sex, this illicit sex, how is killing him. Illicit sex is so dangerous. He's a good boy. Similarly, Gaurasundara is killed by this illicit sex. Everyone will be killed with the illicit sex. That is the difficulty—falldown. What can I do? I have already given instruction. If they do not follow, they fall down. That is sure. So dangerous. And in our society it is very easy to have affair, so many girls are there. I can say "Don't do this," but if you do, what can I do? So, what you have written, Alfred?

Devotee: "Sudāmā has left our camp. He has his own plans, so under the circumstances . . ."

Prabhupāda: Ahah, "He has his own camp, and he has violated our rules and regulations and fallen down. Under the circumstances don't be influenced by him, unless you see me." Is that all right?

Gurukṛpā: Unless he sees you?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So "I am coming very soon in Hawaii. I am very much busy in Bombay for some business" . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is this. Karāndhara has done some . . . I trusted so much. How you can . . .? This is the poison, illicit sex, and this poison will kill everything. This is the poison. And I cannot understand whether I shall be able to save my disciples from this poison. This is the poison. They do not take it seriously, but in the beginning I said, "No illicit sex." If you want . . . (indistinct) . . . these four principles, if they are not strictly followed, then he's victimized forever—today or tomorrow. He should take little time, of his time, to save himself. Artificially, that will not save him; he will fall down. Kṛṣṇa can excuse for some time, but it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Api cet su-durācāro (BG 9.30). If unconsciously, or if you have some accidentally falldown, that is excused. But purposefully—it is all rascaldom. Bali-mardana fell. Karāndhara fell. Sudāmā fell. And gradually they are falling down. What can I do? I say that you shall remain fixed up in this way, but if you do not accept it, then how can I help you? If I say that "Don't dry your knife on your neck," and if you do it, so how can I save you?

Gurukṛpā: I think that there is no saṅkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gurukṛpā: They get too much business and no saṅkīrtana, then they forget.

Prabhupāda: Well, why too much business? Who . . . (indistinct) . . . business?

Gurukṛpā: That is the case of all the devotees that have fallen. They have stopped doing saṅkīrtana and just strictly business. And then they forget. I know myself, if I don't do some saṅkīrtana every day, I usually become agitated. But if I can do two . . .

Prabhupāda: That is also advised. But if you do not do it, then sixteen rounds first be done. This is not saṅkīrtana?

Gurukṛpā: Myself, I need more than . . .

Prabhupāda: More than anyone. This is the . . . every letter, every time it is stressed that "You must finish sixteen rounds."

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is real saṅkīrtana—at least sixteen rounds. But if you do not follow, then how can you be saved? Saved without saṅkīrtana—for this is stressed in every letter.

Gurukṛpā: Yes, you stress, but they do not do.

Prabhupāda: Then if they do not follow the instruction of the spiritual master, then how you can be saved? You are fallen; I say "Catch this rope. I'll take you, take you out." But if you do not catch? Then? What is next?

Devotee: Well, the next report is the restaurant. "The restaurant was purchased with a $12,000 donation from Alfred Ford and was fixed up with a $2000 loan from Peter Burwash, a local Life Member. Last month, Sudāmā arranged legally to have the restaurant transferred into the joint ownership of Sudāmā, Taruṇa Kānti, Atulānanda and Peter Burwash. Sudāmās claim was that Alfred Ford had meant the $12,000 as a loan and not as a donation, and that he did not trust that ISKCON would ever pay it back, but apparently that he did trust that Sudāmā would pay it back. Sudāmā also managed to transfer ownership of several of the temple vehicles to his name, and in addition he took with him . . . "

Prabhupāda: Why not take criminal charges against him? Prosecute him. So that would be another trouble. That is also not advisable, eh?

Gurukṛpā: Very difficult.

Prabhupāda: That is difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . that every member is trustworthy for money, everything, and if you . . .

Devotee: He says . . .

Prabhupāda: Pālikā, she has not come? Pālikā?

Gurukṛpā: She is here.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: She is here.

Prabhupāda: Where? I called. (rings a bell) So, you have begun cooking?

Pālikā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, I wanted ordinary rice . . . (indistinct) . . . khichuri.

Pālikā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so what, what is the use of hearing? (aside) I changed my mind, next time. He has plan. What is the plan? Then? You read? Have you read the whole thing?

Devotee: No, there is a little bit more. "He says that he took the large bus which was being used for traveling saṅkīrtana. He plans to sell this bus, which is worth about $6000 or $7000, and invest the proceeds in getting his thing together. He claims that the bus was purchased with a personal donation from Alfred Ford. But I have been unable to either prove or disprove that statement. But at any rate it seems as that they're using Alfred Ford's devotion to you for their own personal benefit."

Prabhupāda: Therefore it must go. A letter must go immediately.

Devotee: We will send a letter today. "5. The temple financial situation: Sudāmā has left us about $30,000 in debt, and with no substantial assets. We have one broken-down 1960 Volkswagen, one broken-down truck, and not a penny in the bank. The saṅkīrtana party was practically nonexistent. Daily collections were under $50, and only two or three men were going out for a couple of hours per day. They had been preaching to the book distributors that what they were doing was . . ."

Prabhupāda: One thing is, that why they are reporting? Why . . . what steps they have taken? The GBC's main policy, simply reporting to me vague reports?

Gurukṛpā: They suggested that I should go and pay the bill.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you should go immediately. We know the situation, and do if, if proper, and possible take criminal . . . (indistinct)

Gurukṛpā: Yeah, but the $30,000, that money, he expects me to collect that money and pay that, which is your money. Because I have the money for Māyāpur. Instead of giving to Māyāpur, we pay these bills.

Devotee: So this, this is the basic report, but then these other letters go into the . . . see, this is Jayatīrtha before he has even seen Brahmānanda.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee: This is before Brahmānanda has arrived.

Prabhupāda: So what I shall do by hearing the report? GBC allow them to do whatever they like. No restriction; there is no inspection. There is only . . . What is the use of GBC? He was doing all these things planned, and the GBC could not understand? So what can I do? . . . (indistinct) . . . huh? So go and . . . He is such a traitorous boy, no respect. One traitor is . . . Gaurasundara was not so much traitor. He is a gross traitorous. Gaurasundara, he took money, he sent some money to our . . . (indistinct) . . . but he paid everything. He has taken all the money from Gaurasundara; he is a great traitorous. So what you think, what is to be done now?

Gurukṛpā: Well, the only thing to do is that if Alfred Ford wants the land back, then we will have to find another place and simply pick up from where we left off.

Prabhupāda: No. Alfred, unless he is poisoned, he is not bewildered.

Gurukṛpā: No, but if he doesn't want it, we can remain there . . .

Prabhupāda: Ha.

Gurukṛpā: . . . and have the plans for the temple, and if he does want it then we have to move.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: But in the meantime, the devotees . . .

Prabhupāda: That means he may not be poisoned. So I'll have to go. In the meantime, you go. Where . . . when is your ultimate time?

Gurukṛpā: I am leaving tomorrow at 6 o'clock.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gurukṛpā: In the morning.

Prabhupāda: What other points?

Devotee: Well that was just about it, other than the financial situation is very bad, and he says the only place they can do book distribution there is on Waikiki Beach. And there is already about half a dozen semi-blooped devotees doing saṅkīrtana there to maintain themselves, including Bali-mardana's wife.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: Well, but they say that the saṅkīrtana there is very difficult. The only place that they can do it is Waikiki Beach.

Gurukṛpā: I think that is a fact.

Prabhupāda: Huh.

Gurukṛpā: It is not a good place for collecting, at all. It is very . . . the rich people, they have shopping places, but the police are very, very . . . Because they are rich, and this is the only place, and that is not so good.

Devotee: But he says anyway . . .

Gurukṛpā: Sudāmā used to have his . . . some men in America sending him money. They would stay on the mainland and do saṅkīrtana and sent the money back to Hawaii. He was doing that.

Devotee: But he seems to think that . . . he says that, "At any rate I am confident that we will be able to maintain the temple and extinguish the debt."

Gurukṛpā: How is that?

Devotee: I don't know.

Gurukṛpā: $30,000?

Devotee: It doesn't make sense.

Prabhupāda: Then, what else?

Devotee: So that . . . he says that . . . number 6 is new management. "I have brought one of the best men in my zone here to help manage affairs. His name is Ānandavardhana dāsa adhikārī. He is intelligent, regulated and sincere and has good experience in management of our Denver temple. Denver has been by far the best-managed temple in the western zone, as I have several times reported to you, and Ānandavardhana, as the number-two man there, was very instrumental in bringing it up to that standard. In addition, I am bringing Mahātmā dāsa from Vancouver, former president, to act as number-two man. He is also very enthusiastic and intelligent and is a very good book distributor.

I feel confident that between the two of them the management of this temple will go on well. I know from Bhagavān that Your Divine Grace has suggested that perhaps Guru-kṛpā Swami could come here. My personal feeling is that it might be valuable for him to come here for some time and preach, but that they would probably not want to stay on permanently to maintain the center. Also, saṅkīrtana could never be as lucrative as Tokyo, and this important source of revenue for the Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust would be stopped. Of course, if Your Divine Grace decides that they should definitely come, I will work with them very happily. I personally have great respect for them, and I feel them to be very well qualified."

Prabhupāda: That is all right . . . (indistinct) . . . so now, what you think we should do?

Gurukṛpā: We can go . . .

Prabhupāda: And help them for some time.

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Gurukṛpā: But the quest . . . quest . . .

Prabhupāda: You know that the collection is not possible there.

Gurukṛpā: Yes, not much.

Prabhupāda: So let them do that; you can go to South America.

Gurukṛpā: So Hṛdayānanda should be written a letter and asked to co-operate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what else?

Devotee: "Number 7 is Danger to the Society. I'm a little bit worried about this turn of events, because it appears to my mundane vision that it may pre-stage an actual philosophical division amongst your disciples. In reading your Caitanya-caritāmṛta Chapter Twelve in reference to the followers of Advaita Ācārya and how some followers gradually developed their own opinion of devotional service, which was different from the instructions of their guru, but still claim to be followers, I think that I have perceived some parallels in the present situation. At the same time it appears that things are ripe for such a split, especially after so many signs of corruption amongst the society's leaders have recently come to light, thus providing a good excuse for those who want to work outside the authority structure of the society to do so. I am actually fearful that this anti-ISKCON party feeling may spread widely in the society, although I realize that the best defense to this would be to send . . ."

Prabhupāda: We simply counteract if we remain sincere and follow the spiritual master, nobody can harm you. But if you are not so strong, then there will be trouble.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: But if you stick to your position, as I have advised, then you will be successful.

Gurukṛpā: This was like Siddha-svarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: It just kind of fell apart after a while.

Prabhupāda: He could not be able to do.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara . . . they are all localized. That is not . . . if we stick to our principles, then it will be all right.

Devotee: Hm. Then he has one request at the end. "Your Divine Grace has for several years spent most of the time in India. At the same time, so much nonsense has happened in the society. So many big leaders have fallen down, etc. Of course, at the same time so many aspects of our movement have progressed nicely. I think, however, that your presence in the West will counteract all of this bad influence. I sincerely think, therefore, that if you can come and stay in Hawaii for a good part of the next year, that all of the poison in the society will be removed."

Prabhupāda: So I'm going. I'm going. You go. I shall remain in South America and you shall do the needful, that is all.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: I'm going. So I am simply waiting. I have arranged for visiting the governor for this purpose. But that is also a big clique. The secretaries, they are not arranging the meeting. This is the position everywhere. Then?

Devotee: He says that if you come . . .

Prabhupāda: That is, that is the remedy. So I shall have to go to Hawaii immediately, as soon as possible. If you go, I will try to go.

Gurukṛpā: Should I . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply I'm waiting for this governor's meeting. As soon as it is done, I shall go.

Gurukṛpā: Should I go to Tokyo and wait for you there, and then go with you to Hawaii, or should I go all the way to Hawaii? There are some things that I have to settle up in Tokyo.

Prabhupāda: More settle around you, then go.

Gurukṛpā: I should wait for you in Tokyo?

Prabhupāda: That I shall let you know this evening.

Gurukṛpā: Okay. Or you can just pass Tokyo up?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: Because I will . . .

Prabhupāda: I will have to pass, because I cannot go directly to Hawaii.

Gurukṛpā: But I am saying that you cannot get off the plane.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: My plan is . . . is to remove the most of the men from Tokyo now.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: Because New Year is the cold season, and they can go to Hawaii. And if you stop in Tokyo, there will be only two or three people there.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. Better that I stop for one night or one day.

Gurukṛpā: Okay.

Prabhupāda: Let me know when you have booked it.

Devotee: They have daily flights between Hong Kong and Tokyo and Tokyo and Honolulu.

Prabhupāda: Ha.

Devotee: So one night.

Prabhupāda: So that definitely. I shall let you know this evening what is the position. So? So what is there more?

Devotee: One point that comes out here is that this was dated December 22nd.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee: And he says that he is fearing this, that Alfred Ford might be poisoned, and it may be happening right now. So probably the sooner that Guru-kṛpa Mahārāja goes there . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Also, where is Alfred?

Devotee: Even if we write a letter, it may be too much time . . .

Prabhupāda: So you can take my letter and see that he is coming . . . (indistinct)

Gurukṛpā: Where is Alfred Ford?

Devotee: Well the last time he wrote us, he was in Wyoming. He lives in Wyoming, but he was going to meet you there in Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Devotee: So he may be there, because they are expecting Prabhupāda.

Gurukṛpā: Not now.

Devotee: No, they are expecting.

Gurukṛpā: Not now.

Devotee: Really.

Gurukṛpā: You . . . I was in Tokyo . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Gurukṛpā: . . . and when Brahmānanda came, he said that you were . . . did not even coming this to Hawaii or Tokyo, that you were going to Australia.

Prabhupāda: No, but that Australia, er . . . no. Australia, I was to go from Hawaii.

Gurukṛpā: But he did not say that.

Prabhupāda: No.

Gurukṛpā: He did not tell me that.

Prabhupāda: That was our plan. Oh, yes.

Devotee: Yeah, our plan was to go to Australia.

Prabhupāda: Directly Australia. So that plan has changed.

Gurukṛpā: Yes. So they do not have any idea that you are coming.

Devotee: Well, we wrote one letter afterwards to Jayatīrtha saying . . . Prabhupāda said that "I may be coming in two weeks." That was about two weeks ago.

Prabhupāda: So arrange like that. What . . .

Devotee: So we'll send a letter with Guru-kṛpā. So that was the 22nd. Now the next day Brahmānanda Swami came, that was the 23rd that he came. And then he writes . . . all the major background is here, so he just gives his basic . . .

Prabhupāda: That is all right. What is the use of? That is the background.

Devotee: Yeah, then this is . . .

Prabhupāda: He repeats.

Devotee: No, no. He gives the . . . after studying the situation and also all the background that was already presented, he gives his . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that?

Devotee: "After studying the situation in Hawaii we have one major concern: that is that this property is currently held in the name of Alfred Ford, and Alfred has told . . . has been told by Sudāmā that Your Divine Grace does not want it placed in the society's name. Furthermore, because Atulānanda dāsa is Alfred's closest friend within the society and now Atulānanda . . ."

Gurukṛpā: He told me that, when he came to Japan. He said that you did not want that property.

Devotee: Brahmānanda said that?

Gurukṛpā: No, Sudāmā said.

Prabhupāda: So he can say so many things; why you rascals believe it? That is my point.

Gurukṛpā: Well I didn't . . . it wasn't my business.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is quoting "Sudāmā said" and why do you pay attention?

Gurukṛpā: He was telling . . . Jayatīrtha is the GBC. He also told him.

Prabhupāda: Well where is my name in writing?

Devotee: Something that important has to be in writing.

Prabhupāda: Just see, he is telling, telling, telling, telling. Why one should believe so confidently Sudāmā? Neglecting me and asking me. So what can I do? Sudāmā is speaking my name so many rascal things, but why other rascal will believe him? Eh? Then what can I do?

Gurukṛpā: Awesome.

Prabhupāda: That . . . what is that he suggest?

Devotee: Well, it seems . . . it seems that the property . . . He says it seems that the property should be secured legally before plans for developing it.

Prabhupāda: Should be? Why don't you do it? Why don't you meet him?

Devotee: Well he next suggests that originally that plan was that every year he would donate one third.

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah, that is all right.

Devotee: He says, "At the end of the three years the society would own the land outright."

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Devotee: He cannot give it all at once because . . .

Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? What is the use of writing me?

Devotee: Oh, here it is. He says, "Our suggestion, therefore, if it pleases Your Divine Grace, is that Your Divine Grace may issue one letter to Alfred asking him to please carry out his original plans to put the land in the society's name."

Prabhupāda: And let him.

Devotee: In other words they . . . it seems like they cannot do anything from their end. It is either this boy Atulānanda and Sudāmā influencing him . . .

Prabhupāda: But how Alfred will be so foolish that he has decided to see three years, and how Sudāmā will induce him to do it immediately in his name?

Devotee: No, I don't think he means immediately, but . . . the same program, only turning it over to Arnie, or the other . . . Atulānanda's name.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: It appears that not that he is going to give it outright. He can't do that, because of tax reasons, but he would do the same thing one third per year to Atulānanda instead of ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: If he gives this property, what can I do?

Devotee: That's the danger. He . . . Brahmānanda says that "He seems to be very devoted to you, and that we feel that he would definitely respond to your request." If you tell him not to . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I am writing.

Devotee: Yeah, so this . . .

Prabhupāda: So write that letter very nicely and send it.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And what else?

Devotee: Ah, he just reports that Guru-kṛpā has agreed to take responsibility to finance the construction.

Prabhupāda: So there everyone is ready. Now, Guru-kṛpā, do you think that he will be able to manage very first-class? How he worked for some time . . . (indistinct)

Gurukṛpā: I will go. The thing is this . . .

Prabhupāda: What else?

Gurukṛpā: The two men that Jayatīrtha has sent, I know one of those, Mahātmā.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Gurukṛpā: He is a good man.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Gurukṛpā: He can be president. But after the difficulty is straightened out . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, all right.

Gurukṛpā: . . . he would keep things going.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then anything else?

Devotee: Well, he just gives a report on Sudāmā and Subala. He says that, "He gave them your message that they should go out and preach like Viṣṇujana and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, and he said that presently they are unwilling to give up their craziness to go and preach as you have requested them to do. Subala is growing a beard on his face and is working as a busboy in a restaurant. And the rest of his time is spent in stringing seashells to sell as necklaces."

Prabhupāda: He is growing beard?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. Then anything else?

Devotee: Hm, he suggests that Guru-kṛpā also take responsibility for Hong Kong.

Prabhupāda: That Guru-kṛpā will take whatever I say. That is not difficult.

Devotee: And he also suggests that Citsukānanda could go to Hong Kong. (break) . . . manage there. He says that he could work very nicely with those people.

Prabhupāda: Citsukānanda is not sticking to any one place.

Gurukṛpā: No, he is very timid. He is very back and forth. He changes his mind . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gurukṛpā: . . . every two minutes. He's a good man if he is . . . (break)

Devotee: . . . letter. He wrote a letter on the next day. So here he says that he has received a report. Ah, they have been trying to preach to these devotees that left with Subala and Sudāmā. Brahmānanda says he was preaching to them, and he says he is clearing up some of the misconceptions, and already two of them have come back. And they say that, that group, that other group Subala and Sudāmā and the others, are breaking all the principles. He says they're taking drugs and having illicit sex and everything. So Brahmānanda . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. They are now sexually desiring. Everyone is desiring, one who cannot control. Then they will break all the regulative principles. Everything will be happening. What can I do? Even they will not stick married life.

Gurukṛpā: Hm.

Prabhupāda: They are accustomed to break this law. It is very difficult for them. Their fathers, they have done so also—every three, every year thrice divorced, twice. This is the issue . . . (indistinct) . . . what can I do? I have given the formula. They are doing, so long they are doing.

Devotee: Apparently, Brahmānanda still, when he wrote these letters, he didn't know that Australia was canceled.

Prabhupāda: Oh, now he has to know?

Devotee: He must know now, because the letter was sent. Our letter (break) . . . Guru dāsa, nothing really, though, just . . . he says that Jayatīrtha is immediately telling Guru dāsa to go to Vṛndāvana. He should go there without delay.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Devotee: I don't know where he got that, where. It doesn't say. And he says that Baradrāj is doing very well in LA. He has ten assistants making dolls, and Revatīnananda Swami is there doing college engagements.

Prabhupāda: Los Angeles?

Devotee: Ah, I don't think so. I think he is in Laguna Beach. "Bali-mardana is here in Honolulu, and I will try and contact him and request him to come with me to Australia at the end of the month to join you. He is with his wife. Subala Swami came here to the Sunday feast, but before I could speak with him he left. He looks terrible. I do not know what the Fiji situation is." (aside) Who?

Prabhupāda: This Sudama. Ah yes. Subala.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: He fights.

Gurukṛpā: Always.

Prabhupāda: He will not be able to stay with Sudāmā. They will fight.

Devotee: No, actually Sudāmā, when he was here in Māyāpur, he said that he and Subala got in some very extreme fights.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Gurukṛpā: Subala, he fights with everyone.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: Subala fights with everyone.

Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone. He cannot remain there. He is most unscrupulous.

Devotee: He will have to have his own movement, with only him. (laughs) (break)

Gurukṛpā: Also, he is there in Tokyo still, and I suggested to him . . . I was talking yesterday to Tokyo. That you suggested that he should go to Spain and work with Bhagavān. And for . . . I don't know, but for some reason he did not readily take the idea.

Prabhupāda: He wants to work independently.

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He doesn't want to be supervised by anyone. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and our whole program is surrender. And these Western boy, they do not want to surrender to anyone. Is it not?

Devotee: It is true.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of surrender. They have surrendered (laughs) to some extent to me; that is wonderful. Otherwise there is no question of surrender. And our business is surrender. Unless you surrender fully, there is no progress . . . (indistinct) . . . anyway, let us pray to Kṛṣṇa. So any other important details?

Devotee: Well the latest, this is the latest letter from Brahmānanda on the 27th, when he met Bali-mardana.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Devotee: He said, "He came to the temple and we had a talk. His present plans are to get some hotel training for the next few months and then go to Japan."

Prabhupāda: Hotel training?

Devotee: Hotel training don't understand that.

Prabhupāda: What is that? He wants to open a hotel?

Gurukṛpā: Not in Japan.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: It is too expensive there.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Gurukṛpā: You must be a millionaire to open anything there, it is so costly.

Prabhupāda: Maybe he is millionaire mahārāja.

Devotee: Mahārāja. (laughs)

Gurukṛpā: Their millions are useless to us. He is not giving them.

Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . (indistinct) . . . I know Bali-mardana is . . . (indistinct) . . . He has given.

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Whenever I wanted money, he has given. Never mind wherefrom he has got, but he gives. Actually he helps purchasing land.

Devotee: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: Recently when he came, he gave me 120,000.

Devotee: Twenty thousand.

Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand, yes. I do not know where from. (laughs) That I cannot say. Therefore I say that he is a good soul. He has been polluted by the wife. The same: sex. And his wife is very, very intelligent; she knows how to earn money. Extraordinarily intelligent, and she knows how to earn money.

Devotee: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: If she likes she can independently earn money, many thousands. That also I know. So if that can be corrected, they can be utilized at this stage; there is no question of rejection. They are able to do something. Aiye. (end)