710321 - Conversation - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

710321R1-BOMBAY - March 21, 1971 - 30:11 Minutes

Prabhupāda: You have tried to follow the principles which we are following. Now here, all your associates, they have joined us?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that . . . that's nice. You are welcome. Where is Sai?

Devotee: Oh, he's in Honolulu right now.

Prabhupāda: So, what is his opinion? He wants to keep himself separate?

Devotee: What from?

Prabhupāda: From us, from our institution?

Devotee: He says . . . he told me several months ago, "I'm going to go where I rightfully belong, and that's at the lotus feet of my spiritual master." He said that, "I have these disciples, so they are my responsibility, and I cannot make this step until these devotees are fixed up enough so that they won't go back to māyā."

And he says this is possible, because this is where he belongs. So he called our devotees that . . . he said that he wanted to please you he would be willing to transfer to you.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. So, I think once he wrote me letter, and I replied. You remember?

Devotee: I heard that. Yes, I saw . . .

Prabhupāda: I think it was from that time, during . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: Yes. I saw that letter. It was given to us in New Vrindaban.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that we are strictly following the disciplic succession, and so, dovetailing. It doesn't matter if he works independently on this principle, but a dovetailing will give him strength, spiritual strength. So best thing will be to amalgamate, and follow our principles and work from there. Officially, he has to accept a spiritual master. That is necessary. So has he got any objection?

Devotee: No. He's . . . he left Honolulu first and he told me, he told all the devotees he was going to take the lowest position in the temple. He was going to surrender at the feet of your devotees. So he flew to San Francisco. Over fifty devotees went to different temples. The first night, thirty-five devotees left. Six went to San Francisco with Sai. And he came back after a few days, and went to stay with Gaurasundara at his . . .

Prabhupāda: They're, all your brothers, they have shaven heads. Shaven heads. No?

Devotee: Yes. They are all . . .

Prabhupāda: All?

Devotee: The first morning Sai told all the devotees, at night, and the next morning, he came out a little bit, our first meeting in the morning with his long hair, and then he went back to his room and came out again with his head shaved. He said: "Anyone who wants to follow my example, please do so." And every boy . . .

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Devotee: . . . every boy shaved his head immediately.

Prabhupāda: I think Sai was present in a meeting in Honolulu last time, and your all members, some of them were present.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But he did not talk with me at that time. I did not know who was Sai, but Govinda dāsī told me that he was present.

Devotee (3): I think in London . . . (indistinct) . . . received one letter from Govinda dāsī mentioning about Sai. And so then . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So try to understand that whatever we are doing, it is not concocted; it is authorized. We are following the principles authorized. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). The spiritual life is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ. It is very confidential, and nobody can find it out without the help of ācārya. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Therefore, the real path is to follow the footsteps of great ācāryas, and . . .

Indian man: They have come from this . . . that Ṭhākura . . . (indistinct) . . . they are engaged with this Bhāgavata-saptāha, after pūjā . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Indian man: They have . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . will not be so effective.

Indian man: Okay. So, can we keep in the morning, because regularly they get the time in the morning now.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Indian man: We will get the time in the morning, after coming from the . . . this kīrtana . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Indian man: . . . at about nine we will be returning here.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: Then there is no program officially. And if you like, we will keep at ten o'clock.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We have already fixed up from five to seven.

Indian man: Five to seven we are already fixed there with Sanātana-sevāsaṅga.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: So you want more next time?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man: No.

Prabhupāda: That five to seven is sufficient.

Indian man: Yes. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Within that . . .

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . you make some arrangement . . .

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . for hearing from me . . .

Indian man: All right.

Prabhupāda: . . . the teachings of Bhāgavata . . .

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . or Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Indian man: I see.

Prabhupāda: . . . continually for some days.

Indian man: All right.

Prabhupāda: That will be nice, effective.

Indian man: So, we will direct these bhajanas, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhajanas?

Indian man: We will direct sometime.

Prabhupāda: Bhajana will be in the beginning, as we have done, kīrtana. And then at the last, class. In the middle . . .

Indian man: Middle only.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Indian man: You, you will, if . . . that is we'll do in some sort.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do that. So, practically you have decided to follow our principles. Now do it. Everything will be all right.

Devotee: But, there's . . . there's some confusion amongst many of the devotees who have taken kṛṣṇa-yoga from you, because for so long, you know, we've been worshiping Sai as God.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not good.

Devotee: Yes, I recognize that.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: Says in the scriptures that . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Devotees should treat the spiritual master as God.

Prabhupāda: Treating as . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: But this does not mean that we are saying that Sai is God.

Prabhupāda: Just like my disciples give me royal throne and treats me just like a king, but that does not mean I am king.

Devotee: No, that's . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They offer me respect. That is their duty. But if, because they offer me respect in that way, if I say then I have become Kṛṣṇa, that is not good.

Devotee: Yes, I understand, though it's not to say that he was saying . . .

Prabhupāda: It's their duty to offer me respect, as much respect Kṛṣṇa is offered; more than that. That is their duty. But my duty is not that declare that I have become Kṛṣṇa. Then it is Māyāvādī. Then it is gone, everything is gone. Spiritual master is servant God, and Kṛṣṇa is God, and because in the absolute field there is no distinction between the servant and the master . . . there is distinction. The servant always knows that "I am servant," and master knows that "I am master," although still there is no distinction. That is absolute.

Then Vaikuṇṭha, all the inhabitants are just like Nārāyaṇa, and in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, all the cowherds boys, they are as good as Kṛṣṇa. They do not know that Kṛṣṇa is . . . they love Kṛṣṇa intensely, without knowing that He is God, and that is required. The love is required. Not that one has to know Kṛṣṇa is God. God or no God, we love Kṛṣṇa, unconditionally. That is required. Although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, but the vṛndāvana-vāsī, they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God, but their love for Kṛṣṇa is so intense, that makes them perfect. That is required.

Premā pum-artho mahān (Caitanya-manjusa). We have to increase our love, I mean to say, so intensely. There is, Vṛndāvana, inhabitants Vṛndāvana, even Nārāyaṇa they did not care so much. They offered respect. They love Kṛṣṇa so. And that is required. Not to understand what is God, and not to become God, but to love Kṛṣṇa.

But you cannot understand God, neither you can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is because Kṛṣṇa is so unlimited. He, He, He becomes just, just like human being, human child, that is His grace; but it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. If one says that, "I understood Kṛṣṇa," he is another fool. (laughs) Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. But still, one has to intensify his love for Kṛṣṇa without any deviation. That is perfection.

So it is very good that you have started the Kṛṣṇa Yoga Society. The name, name Kṛṣṇa was there; that has benefited you. Somehow or other, you developed some love for Kṛṣṇa. That has made you to come to us. That very conception that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord has benefited you. Only that qualification. So now you have come, you take it seriously, and according to regulative principle, then your life is perfect. But if Sai is still thinking of himself as God, that's not very good.

Devotee: I think he was only saying we should . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody can be God.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . He was never claiming that.

Prabhupāda: This is Māyāvāda.

Devotee: . . . we were following the Vedic injunction of . . . of treating the spiritual master . . .

Prabhupāda: We are, we are, we are in quality one with God. The substance as we are, the same as God. In that way we are not different, so far substance, just like a chemical composition, that is one. One can study Kṛṣṇa by studying His personal propensities. Just like the characteristic of the father is manifested in the characteristic of the son, or the son's characteristic is manifested in the father, similarly, all the characteristics of Kṛṣṇa are with . . . are with us.

Indian man: Namaskāra.

Prabhupāda: Aiye.

Indian man: They wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . they, they said they wanted to go out of . . . (indistinct) . . . station, so I came just now because . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . only, because we accepted Kṛṣṇa, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). The devotional service . . . one can enter into the devotional service by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa. So one who is sincerely thinking of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa gives him good spiritual master. And then, with the cooperation of spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, the devotee becomes enhanced in spiritual life.

Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. You have read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya? In there you will find both. So one has to serve, parallel, guru and Kṛṣṇa. To serve Kṛṣṇa under the direction of guru, that is perfection. And . . . and . . . and treat spiritual master as Kṛṣṇa, but not to commit mistake that he is Kṛṣṇa

To love spiritual master as good as Kṛṣṇa, that's nice, but this is Māyāvāda if one thinks that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa, or spiritual master declares himself that, "I am Kṛṣṇa." That is very offensive. That will check further progress in spiritual life.

So I will reply this letter. It is very good. Welcome. You are welcome. You are sincere soul, and follow these regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then officially we shall accept you, and you work jointly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is necessary throughout the whole world.

So Sai is intelligent boy, you are intelligent; take it seriously, and reclaim the confused boys, those who are passing as hippies. Try to convince them about the importance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will be saved. Your country will be saved. The world will be saved. People will be happy. It is a nice movement. Try to understand.

You have got immense work to do. These fallen souls, these misguided, confused boys and girls, I have got every sympathy for them. They have been misguided, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially meant for them. Let them take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will get what they are searching after. These confused boys and girls, they are searching after something happy. They will find it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact.

So I'll especially request your group to teach these confused boys passing as hippies. So many thousands of boys and girls, especially in America.

Devotee: Especially.

Prabhupāda: Especially. Especially in our . . . I have seen. So try to convince them. That is Kṛṣṇa's service. You, you are practically experienced from your past life to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you can better convince them. So I will write to Sai, you also write, and combined together just try to reclaim these confused souls. That will be your service, great service. Don't be satisfied that, "We have got now Kṛṣṇa. Our business is finished." No. You will reclaim your brothers, and that is greater service.

So conjointly do it, and if Sai comes here, I shall also request him. We have got very, I mean to say, responsible task, on behalf of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to reclaim these fallen souls. Do it. That will be very nice. Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased.

Devotee: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Try to reclaim, save these boys, save these souls. You see? Otherwise, by laws of nature, their life will be spoiled. Law of nature is very strict, stringent. If you develop animal propensities, you will have to become animal. You do not become—you will get another facility, by animal body. You are always spirit soul, but because you desire like that, your desire will produce a body like that. So these laws of nature is so subtle, as soon as you desire something to become, "Yes, here it is."

So your best service to Kṛṣṇa will be to save these hippies. Somehow or other convince them that best thing, our process is very simple. Somehow or other call them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let them hear and give them prasādam, that's all. You . . . you remain pure, and your purity of service, your association, will influence them. If you remain pure. And then they will gradually come.

All over the world. In India they have become Communists, Naxalites, but I have studied: they are all good souls. Soul always good. Simply they are misguided. Soul cannot be not good, because the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is all-good; therefore, constitutionally, every soul is good. But by demonic association they become bad.

(aside) Accha. Where is that cloth? I forgot. That one Madrasi gentleman get. You put it in this closet.

Devotee: I'll put it in that closet.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Chambur.

Prabhupāda: Chambur.

Devotee: Certainly in the.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . that's all.

Devotee: I have a question about the position of the devotees now they are living in ISKCON temples.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: Just like, when Sai told the devotees that we were all going to be joining ISKCON . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. You live just like my other disciples are living.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then I shall initiate you. That's all. I have given them standard by instruction and by my books. So live according to that, and try to serve Kṛṣṇa by reclaiming these confused souls passing as hippies. That will be great service to the society, to your country and to Kṛṣṇa. Try to save them.

Woman devotee: These devotees, already they are living in a very simple . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Woman devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So issue instruction that treat them very nicely; they are good souls. Immediately issue. Where . . . where . . . wherever they have gone, you issue the letter.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Woman devotee: Śyāmasundara has written I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very—Kṛṣṇa's grace that you have come to us. Because you, somehow or other, you developed a little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given you the opportunity to come to us. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. As soon as He sees a little attachment for Him, immediately gives all facilities. So they are coming to us—another indication that this ISKCON movement is approved by Kṛṣṇa. Those who are sincere, they are coming, they are coming. So keep it very pure, then all of you will be benefited. Yes. He can write to Sai. I will also write. What is address now?

Devotee: He's staying at the ISKCON temple, 2016 . . . (indistinct) . . . street

Śyāmasundara: He's staying with Gaurasundara and Govinda dāsī.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Gaurasundara has written?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's nice. So I shall one . . . dictate one letter, tomorrow. Immediately post. It is very good that you have come, and we are also pleased. Kṛṣṇa is pleased, everyone is pleased. Yes. The greatest disservice is to misguide. That people are in misery, so-called rascal leaders and svāmīs, simply they do not know what is the end of life. Simply misguide. Misguiding also . . . people want to be misguided. You see? They want confirmation of their misdeeds. Whatever misdeeds they are doing, they go to somebody, and if it is confirmed, oh, then is good sermon. (laughs)

Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. We were in the temple one time, there was so much Sai Baba literature and his testimonial, and the people wanted to do nonsense, and they went to Sai Baba, and he said: "Yes, you can do it," and then they would say: "Yes, Sai Baba said I could drink tea," or whatever.

Devotee: So what is our position towards Sai? This is where, brings great confusion in the minds of the devotees. Immediately they ask.

Devotee (2): Because they used to accept him as spiritual master, so now, now that's all finished . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (2): . . . so, what is their relationship . . .?

Prabhupāda: Let, let Sai accept me as spiritual master, and you remain Sai's disciple, but be initiated properly. Or it is Sai's duty to deliver all his followers to me. That will be very nice. As he has surrendered all his money, similarly, he can surrender all his followers.

Devotee (3): It's like in the army.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. And then it is very good—for him and for his followers.

Devotee: He wrote this fall about that to the devotees. "Shaved heads. Now we are all disciples of Prabhupāda. I can no longer treat you externally as my disciples, because of the negative reaction I will incur . . . (indistinct) . . . if you are internally attached, that is fine. Please me by serving Prabhupāda and his devotees. Prabhupāda must first okay my taking on disciples. He may or he may not. I will follow his orders. He tells me to kill you all, I will kill you."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Very, very good letter. That's very good. So I shall write to him.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Śikṣā-guru or dīkṣā-guru. Initiated . . . initiator master and instructor master. So you can treat him as your instructor master. That is allowed. He will understand. I shall write. Now you live as you are living, everything will be pure.

So this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and thinking of Kṛṣṇa has made you so much advanced. They are chanting. (laughs)

Devotee: They chant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I always indirectly encouraged. I asked Gargamuni (laughing) why he is asking whether we shall supply coat? And why not? They are chanting, why should we not supply? They are purchasing books regular. Why not? So let them associate with our views and ideas.

Devotee: So I was teaching mystical yoga for a long time when I read your books, and I immediately stopped. I was teaching kuṇḍalinī-yoga, kriyā-yoga, these processes. One day he came from Oahu to the āśrama on Maui, "There'll be no more meditation. From now on just sit and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's nice. That is the . . .

Devotee: No more fasting.

Prabhupāda: . . . best, best meditation. Very . . . Kṛṣṇa has helped you; now you stick to these principles. Very good. I shall reply this letter. All right.

Devotees: (offer obeisances) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness method. The more you will sing, the more you will become satisfied. It is very good that you have come. Now combine together. Just save these confused boys. You have got immense work in the Western countries. Immense work.

You write Sai. He is very intelligent boy. You are also intelligent boy. Combine together. And the plan is very simple. Somehow or other call them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give prasādam, that's all. (break) (end)