750414 - Conversation - Hyderabad

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

750414R1-HYDERABAD - April 14, 1975 - 60:14 Minutes

Prabhupāda: ". . . to take the credit. And what is your credit? It is already there for millions of years. Why you are anxious to produce this? Without your help it is being produced. So why you spending our hard-earned money and cheating us? You are cheater. You should be punished. These things are already going on. For you there is no scarcity of life. Then why you are spending our tax to show your talent? What is your talent? You are simply cheating us—'We shall do it. We shall do it.' You do or do not, the things are already there. Why you are taking our money to make research? You are cheating us. You should be punished. You will be punished. Even the state does not punish, you'll be punished by the Supreme Lord because you are cheating. So we can cheat us, but you cannot cheat God. Regular punishment will be there. Millions of years it is going on, and I want to tell(?) take credit . . . what is that. The same example—millions of dogs are barking, and this man has learned how to bark; he is selling tickets. You see? You are driving away barking dog, and because this rascal has learned how to bark, we have to pay for it." What do you think?

Yaśodānandana: So they would say: "Well, we do not claim any credit, but, similarly, you cannot give God credit, because it is going on as a biochemical reaction."

Prabhupāda: Why not? That is your rascaldom. You cannot produce it. Why do you say like that? You rascal, you produce by biochemical combination. That is your rascaldom. That is not science. You are talking like a child, that's all. Credit must be given to God. He's already doing it very systematically. Why shall I . . . I am not such a fool that I have to give credit to you.

Yaśodānandana: No, that is not the question, to give credit to me. But just because you can't . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is producing, either God or somebody, somebody is doing that. I must give the credit, not to you. You may not accept God, but somebody is doing that. As you are trying to do it, similarly, somebody else is already there. Therefore He should get credit. Why you are claiming to get the credit? That is not right. Anybody . . . just like you are somebody, you are trying to take . . . (indistinct) . . . the credit. So similarly, somebody is already doing. So He should get the credit.

Yaśodānandana: Their objection is to "He."

Prabhupāda: But why you are "he"?

Yaśodānandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting.

Prabhupāda: Attempting . . . you are "he." You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person.

Yaśodānandana: Maybe because I am a person . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not maybe. Maybe . . . as soon as you say "maybe" then you'll be slapped. No knowledge. It is not a question of "maybe." It must be factual. Is that all right?

Yaśodānandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard-earned money, taxes? Better follow us." We are giving all credit to the person who has already . . . going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. But that person's arrangement is so nice . . . nobody's going to cut the leaf of this tree, but annually, they are already being changed. The whole foliage, thrown away . . . (indistinct) . . . Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime.

Brahmānanda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot . . .

Prabhupāda: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can not see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see.

Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.

Prabhupāda: Then how he claims to . . . claim others' faiths upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good a scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor, why do you claim people to have faith on you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer?

Nitāi: Sometimes they say that if we can control, if we can produce . . .

Prabhupāda: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal, you are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that "Death will not be forced upon me." So where is the history that man has controlled nature?

Nitāi: They say that now we are controlling atomic energy, and now we are controlling . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is this control? Death is already there, and you are utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy—you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are learning how to become deathless.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will argue . . .

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore our conclusion is, "You are fool number one."

Devotee: We may not be able to actually stop death, but while we're here we can at least prolong our lifetime and. . .

Prabhupāda: That also you cannot do. Where is the proof?

Devotee: Well, at the atomic research plants . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another foolishness, I say. You have not done it. You are simply expecting. Hope against hope, that's all.

Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners—better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are eliminating, one by one, all the diseases.

Prabhupāda: No, that you have not done. No disease . . . you have increased diseases. You have stopped one disease and increased another. Not stopped, but you have increased another disease.

Devotee: We have to learn, though, how to prevent all these diseases.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are fool. You have to learn. That means you have to learn, means you are fool.

Yaśodānandana: But we are learning.

Prabhupāda: Don't assert it, that you have done it already, you shall do it . . . as soon as you say: "We have to learn," that means you are fools. And why, you are student, why you are claiming all these perfections? You have to learn. That you have to learn from us.

Brahmānanda: Actually, when I was in Germany, there was evidence of how the scientists increased disease. They invented some vaccine to counteract influenza, and they injected all of Germany with this vaccine. But what happened is sometimes the body builds up resistance to these vaccines and produces another germ. So, as a result, another type of influenza was created, which was far more worse than the previous. It made people get fever for four and five days straight, 105 degrees.

Prabhupāda: That is the way of . . . they have discovered this streptomycin for tuberculosis, that if one takes too many injection of streptomycin, then it does not act.

Devotee: He becomes immune.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: So as a result of the vaccine, they created a worse type of influenza, and they have nothing to counteract that worse type. So now they have to invent another type.

Prabhupāda: These rascals give trouble to the people, especially in India. They are not after the vaccine. They will catch people and force them. Just see. This is going on. Boys and others are avoiding, they are going, going this way, that way. Sometimes they fall, they do not know, and capture and force. These rascals are creating havoc. Only to kick them on their face with shoes, that's all. The so-called scientists and biologists and . . . they do not know anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying that all the scientists are fools and rascals, but they may challenge, "How has your knowledge benefited you?"

Prabhupāda: Your knowledge has not benefited you. Our taking your so-called science has benefited you because you are using it for Kṛṣṇa. You have worked so hard, so result is going to Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are making the best . . . just like there is chair, but we don't care for the chair. We can sit down. But if it is available, we don't reject it. Therefore if you are making favor to me, you have made a chair and I am sitting there. Not that I require your chair, without your chair I will . . . shall die. That is not my policy. You rascal, you have done something; I'm using it for your benefit. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. But I'm trying, because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone.

Prabhupāda: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your students also suffer from diseases and all . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā:

mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyino nityās

tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata

(BG 2.14)

Titikṣa. We know how to tolerate. We are not mad after curing. We know these things will happen so long I have got this body.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So your difference is that you tolerate, whereas the scientists don't.

Prabhupāda: Because we know that there is no cure. You do not know. You are trying to cure. That is the difference between you and me. We know that so long I have got this body, I'll have to suffer. So we do not stop our business. We tolerate and do our business. That's all. But you have no business. You are simply trying, hope against hope. But it will never be fulfilled. That is the . . . (break) Apart from us, take other living entities, just like birds, beasts, they do not know science. But so long they have got this body, they are also sometimes diseased. But they have no science. How they are cured? The same thing, just like this trees, they have no scissors, so how their leaves are being trimmed, falling down . . . (indistinct) . . . we have discovered scissors, or clippers, but you have no clippers. How their hairs, or their leaves, are being cut, vanished?

Devotee: Prabhupāda, according to archeological findings primitive man, before, when they would get some disease they would just die. And now modern science has developed so nicely. . .

Prabhupāda: That is there. And who is not dying now?

Devotee: Well, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, well, well . . .

Devotee: . . . they died at thirty, forty years old. Now we're dying at a hundred years old.

Prabhupāda: So what is the difference, you die after forty years or hundred years? These trees dies after thousands years. Does it mean the trees are better than you? (laughter) If one dies after one thousand years, does it mean his life is successful?

Devotee: But all of us want to live longer.

Prabhupāda: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you. By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living. There are so many followers of Śaṅkarācārya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa told that He lived for 125 years, and Kṛṣṇa is still living.

Yaśodānandana: Jesus Christ only lived for thirty-six years.

Prabhupāda: Who's caring for any tree who lives for five thousand years? If that is your point—to live long is a great credit—there are already so many living entities who live long, longer than you.

Devotee: Well, they don't . . . they may be living a long time, but they don't have the same intelligence how to use their life span . . .

Prabhupāda: That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . that the dogs also got intelligence, the hogs also got intelligence. The intelligence which you are claiming, that is all discussed in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is said yes, they are living, but you don't see that breathing. So then the vastra, the bellow, it is breathing, "Waa, waa, waa, waa." If breathing is a credit, then give credit to vastra. It is breathing more forcefully. Yes they're living, but they have . . . don't see they have any sex enjoyment . . . (indistinct) . . . you see the dogs and hogs, they are having very good sex enjoyment, even on the street, without any restriction, and begetting three dozen children in a year. And we give credit to whom?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, apart from science, we have very nice philosophy and literature, studying art.

Prabhupāda: That is real science. Science we admit, but your science is not. You are trying to go against the laws of nature.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about our art and literature, which just shows that . . .

Prabhupāda: No. That is different department so far science is concerned. But pure science is useless, simply useless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we acknowledge that, suppose we acknowledge that, but we say that still our cultural advancements are very great. The students say that . . .

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say: "Why . . .?" Many people I meet in the universities, they're not involved with science very much. Their main dealings are with culture, literature, arts, philosophy, music. They say . . . this feels, "We have very wonderful, beautiful things to study, so why should we take up studying what you have to offer? There's so much to study with what we're doing. Why should we join your movement? Why should we give up studying such beautiful music and art and literature?"

Prabhupāda: Because you'll like it. And there is beautiful sounds, you'll hear it. The animals hear it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you sing the same song all the time.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But do you hear it? As soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, hundreds of persons, they'll have to hear it. Ask them not to hear it. You go, you scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . don't hear it. They hear it. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But your music is of one chanting, is very limited. Chanting . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all you finish this limited, then you go to unlimited. You have no experience of this limited, what to speak of the unlimited. Kṛṣṇa has described you mūḍhās, and you have taken. You are mūḍhās. You may try to take credit in so many ways, but our conclusion is following the footsteps of Kṛṣṇa. You are all mūḍhās.

Devotee: Just like some people may express God by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, but we can also express God through our musical talent.

Prabhupāda: We are doing. We are doing. We decorate God so nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . we are doing art, painting, everything. They, cooking art, so many varieties of different that we are offering to Kṛṣṇa. There's no scarcity of art . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are trying to attain the Supreme through our own music. We are doing that through our own mus. . .

Prabhupāda: No. That is . . . that is another nonsense. We are trying to please the Supreme by the supreme music. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. These sounds are not mundane sounds. These are Vaikuṇṭha sounds. Nārada muni bājaya vīṇā rādhikā-ramaṇa nāme. It is brought by Nārada Muni. It is not manufactured here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't you think that the great musicians like Bach, they were inspired by God to make this music?

Prabhupāda: But they . . . (indistinct) . . . do not believe in God. So that is another thing. But this music is like you are hearing music ten thousand miles away. Similarly, this music is being imported from Vaikuṇṭha, many millions and many millions of miles away. So this is not just music of this mundane sound. Otherwise, why you are not tired, repeating it for many, many days? Any mundane sound, we repeat it, you cannot prolong it. You cannot prolong it. But we are . . . we have learned this only Hare Kṛṣṇa, and you can chant this. And you also hear it. You're attracted.

Yaśodānandana: You have said that variety is the mother of enjoyment. So we are enjoying many different songs.

Prabhupāda: Unless there is variety, how we are enjoying?

Yaśodānandana: Yes. So therefore you only have one song. But we have many songs.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Who cares for you?

Yaśodānandana: So many people.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there are so many symphonies . . .

Prabhupāda: That is our credit. We have got one song, and we are attracting so many. You have got many songs, but you attract yourself only. That . . .

Devotee: When there is a symphony orchestra, ten thousand, twenty thousand people have come to hear.

Prabhupāda: But who takes it seriously?

Devotee: They all do.

Prabhupāda: They hear and go away. That's all. Temporary, temporary.

Devotee: But then they will also buy the record and listen at home.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but our song, we are chanting always. Where is that song you have got? You have got to . . . just like George Harrison. He has to give new records. Nobody cares for the old record. Although he is a big musician, then his business will stop if he says that, "I have given one song, that's all." (laughter) Who will care for it? That is our credit.

Devotee: But they will say only a select few are interested in that Hare Kṛṣṇa song. Not so many people.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not select few. We're increasing the number, many thousands. Cannot say select few. Select few was beginning, because I was chanting Tompkinson Square. And now that it is not select few, and it will increase. But the song is the same. That is our credit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going back to science again . . .

Prabhupāda: Going back . . . where is science? We are going back to hell again. Say "Going back to hell again". Say like that. (chuckles) Because this is no science. That is our charge. You can say like that: "Going back again to hell."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We wanted to talk to you about the moon. We have read your statement that you say that man has not gone to the moon, but we have seen. . .

Prabhupāda: Not only now; I've said long, long years ago, that this is all childish.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But how can you say this, when we have so much proof that we have gone to the moon?

Prabhupāda: But that proof is with you. I have not gone with you. I don't believe it. Because according to you, unless you see, you don't believe. I have not seen, so I don't believe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen the North Pole, but you believe it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You materialistic people say that, "We have not seen God, therefore don't believe." Therefore I say: "I have not gone with you, that you have gone to moon. I don't believe." That's all. Finished. How can I believe? You say that you have gone. But I have not gone with you, so I don't believe. That's all. That is my argument. You did not take me with you. How can I believe it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pictures?

Prabhupāda: Why I shall believe pictures? I have not seen it. This is false picture. As you say that you could not saw God, therefore don't believe, therefore I will say that I did not go with you, I don't believe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we can arrange to put you on a ship to take you to the moon.

Prabhupāda: When you take, then I shall believe.

Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet.

Prabhupāda: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here.

Devotee: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in your Vedas it says that the atom is the smallest particle, but yet we have . . .

Prabhupāda: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called, what is called, paramāṇu. Then it is anugra paramāṇu, I mean to say, smaller than the atom.

Devotee: Does that mean the electrons?

Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But śāstra is there. (laughter) Be convinced of your footing; (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings.

Prabhupāda: That is also bogus. Archeological finding is bogus.

Brahmānanda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big dinosaurs . . .

Prabhupāda: That we have already information. We have got timiṅgala fish. Just like big house, like this. They can swallow up . . . what is called?

Devotee: Whale. Whale.

Prabhupāda: Whale . . . (indistinct) . . . what is called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're not fish. And they're very big, and we have information . . .

Prabhupāda: So what is to you? You are also a created being. He's also created being. That's the fact. You are not creator of the fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you say that there was more intelligent life previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously.

Prabhupāda: But you do not see; you simply imagine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We have the skeletons.

Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals.

Prabhupāda: But that's all right. There was a big animal, that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so also there was a big animal. What is the dead animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have skeletons showing the men at that time also, and their brains were very tiny.

Prabhupāda: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not seen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have skeletons in the museum.

Brahmānanda: Very thick skulls and very small brains.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Almost like a ape.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. There was a big animal. So what is the difference? They are animals, big or small. You have seen a skeleton of pygmy man also. So where is that man now? You have seen pygmy man. You don't require archeological. So where is that man?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't live any more. Now we are more intelligent. Previously there were pygmy men, very less intelligent, small, not nice looking. Now we have got more . . .

Prabhupāda: No. But according to our śāstra you are going to be pygmy men. That is . . . there is proof, because you are not as tall as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our śāstra you come to that pygmy, your generation, by . . . in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history is repeating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say there was Kali-yuga. Four yugas are changing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dinosaurs also?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're from Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). They're going on.

Devotee: But if we have bones from so many yugas ago . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are 8,400,000 species of life. You have seen some of them, that's all.

Devotee: But the question is why are there not any findings from only 5,000 years ago, at the time when Kṛṣṇa was here and Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Your knowledge has come with Darwin's theory for 200 . . . not even 200 years.

Haṁsadūta: I was just talking to Kārttikeya. They have found this city 4,000 years old.

Devotee (2): 4,500.

Devotee (3): Where's that?

Haṁsadūta: It's near Kurukṣetra, I think.

Brahmānanda: Yeah, there's one in east . . . west India.

Prabhupāda: So many things are coming, according to their research.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the city of Dvārakā? We do not find it remaining anymore.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It might have destroyed. Might have been. What is that? So many cities are . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we cannot believe what we don't see.

Haṁsadūta: Actually, the scientists don't accept this theory at all any more about the man . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: The more advanced scientists, the more up-to-date ones, they reject this whole Darwin thing. But it's become so ingraded in the minds of the people that they have published, this Life, Time Magazine, they publish millions of books and sell it. People read about ape man, that the man came from the ape and so on. It's become such a popular, it's like a fairy tale.

Prabhupāda: Propaganda. It is propaganda, that's all. By propaganda, you can do any false thing you can describe. This is called. . . propaganda is called in Bengali, dasha cakre bhagavan bhutha. Dasha cakre bhagavan bhutha. Bhagavan . . . one gentleman's name was Bhagavan, and his friend conspired that "Let us make us some joke that he has become ghost." So wherever he was going, the friend: "Oh, oh, a ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost!" (laughter) "No, no, I am not ghost; I am . . ." "No, no. Ghost." . . . (indistinct) . . . they, "This man has become crazy. Why he calling me ghost? I am not ghost." Then he goes another friend, then he also says like that: "Oh, here is a ghost, here is a ghost, here is a ghost!" (laughter) Then third friend, everyone, because they have conspired. Then he began to think, "I must have become ghost. (laughter) So certainly I'm . . . all friends have calling me 'ghost, ghost.' " That is dasha cakre bhagavan. If you make propaganda, if he's not ghost, you can make him ghost. That's all. This is propaganda. This is called propaganda. By propaganda you can establish a false thing as real. That's all. This is going on. They know how to do it. They're expert, because they're cheaters. They know how to do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheating business.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on. Even something which is . . . just like our Śyāmasundara has become victim. This rascal has given him some stone, and "It is very valuable," and he's jumping: "Very valuable." And has taken ten lakhs of rupees. This pakkā propaganda has . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has taken victim. That's all. He's not in his sense, even now that, "If he has given me real gem, why I am unable to sell it for the last three, four years?" (laughter) Such a foolish.

Devotee: He's saying that he has to create the market.

Prabhupāda: Good things, does it require? That is propaganda. You have got some false thing, you have to make propaganda to prove it that it is real.

Devotee: That is the proof it is false.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man has taken money for . . . and he cannot supply even maintenance for his wife and girl. You have seen Mālatī?

Devotee: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Not properly dressed. And this poor girl is not properly dressed. And he's thinking he'll be millionaire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. His head is in the clouds.

Haṁsadūta: I think Bali-mardana became infected by Śyāmasundara. He saw that Śyāmasundara was going to be a millionaire, so then he had to also become a millionaire. So he got Mrs. Toyota.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He got a cheat wife. Eh? Mother said she cheated that, "I am twenty-six years."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many things she cheated.

Prabhupāda: Simply cheated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he wanted to be cheated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Daughter . . . (indistinct) . . . and grand-daughter, all cheaters. Therefore in the United Nation . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She cannot speak Japanese.

Prabhupāda: Everything cheated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She even said that she had four stillborn children. And we went to the hospital and there was no record of her having even been admitted into the hospital. Bali-mardana, she told him to wait downstairs while she gave birth to the four children, and then two hours later she came down, she said: "Now it is finished." And he took her and drove away.

Prabhupāda: Mesmerized.

Brahmānanda: And there was talk that you had said that those four stillborn children were incarnations of Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, she was think that "By cheating this man I am becoming successful." Then she, without any restriction, she began to cheat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: And because he was Mahārāja, so he became . . . she became Mahārānī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Queen. But still he's being fooled by her. (pause) Those birds, I think, are the ones from the cage.

Brahmānanda: Pigeons. Doves.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they're being fed they'll agree to be . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . put in cage. They'll be free. They can go away or no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like the human beings are like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśodānandana: Do you think that as the Kali-yuga progresses the people are getting smaller, does this mean that Kṛṣṇa and His associates were much taller in stature than we are now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśodānandana: They were much bigger.

Prabhupāda: You have seen that Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Kṛṣṇa footprint impression.

Devotee: That means Kṛṣṇa must have been fifteen or twenty feet tall?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . but it is a fact, formerly people were taller. We have seen. In our childhood we have seen, when European, they were very tall.

Devotee (2): They were taller and they lived longer.

Devotee: That story about King Mucukunda, when he was sleeping in the cave and he came out of the cave and looked outside and he said: "Oh, it must be Kali-yuga," because the trees were smaller and . . .

Prabhupāda: Do you . . . (indistinct) . . . the mango trees now? Some of the trees, just like the lemon tree, stunted. In Japan they grow many trees.

Devotee (2): In Japan they cultivate trees to be like that, very small. They have little orange trees.

Brahmānanda: Miniatures.

Devotee (2): Orange trees are this big, orange trees.

Prabhupāda: They are also becoming oranges. Japanese are dwarfs.

Haṁsadūta: The Japanese and Chinese are very, very small.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . Bengal especially. There is a proverb, kalo brahmaṇa kata śūdra bete mussulman kalki chele puṣṭi putra . . . (indistinct) . . . a brāhmaṇa, black . . . Brāhmaṇa's another name is śukla, white. So as soon as a brāhmaṇa is black, then he's bastard. Kalo brāhmaṇa. Kota śūdra, and śūdra . . . just like African, if they become white, there is something mystery. Kalo brāhmaṇa kata śūdra bete mussulman. And Muhammadan . . . because Muhammadan means the Afghans; they are very tall. So a Mussulman is dwarf, a brāhmaṇa is black, the śūdra is white, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, and kalki chelo, that means the bastard, and puṣṭi putra, and adopted son, these are all of the same class. Adopted son, he gets money without any labor, he spends like anything. In your country there is adopted son?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, yeah.

Prabhupāda: Here there are many adopted son. A rich man has no son, he adopts somebody, rascal, and he spends money like . . . there are so many instance. Squanders it. He'll be satisfied after finishing even. There are many instances. In our childhood, many you have heard, we have seen one, when the adopted son, he gets big property, and he was not satisfied to squander all the money unless it became a pauper. That I've seen. He had many cars, and I saw him, he was drenched by water, rainfall, sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. When he was rich, big, big men would come to see him, even Burdwan Mahārāja. Now I saw him that he was in Dharmatala, it was raining and he was sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. And he was satisfied at that time after finishing the whole money. Otherwise, hundreds and two hundred friends, there was very big house, bring, I mean to say, received as guests daily . . . . (indistinct) . . . his name was Arendranath Sil.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a Hindu name?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bengali.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seal?

Prabhupāda: Sil. Sil means cultured. A cultured man is called sil. Sushil. Sushil means very cultured, very . . . Sushil. So kalo brahm . . . this is unnatural. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, kanki chele puṣṭi putra . . . (indistinct) . . . now generally people, we saw in our childhood, Europeans were very tall, and now they are not coming typical so. Naturally when they'll not get sufficient nourishment, they'll be stunted. And Kali-yuga means decrease of nourishment, necessities of life decreasing. We see in such a rich man's house, there is no milk. Milk is one of the important nourishment foods. And there is no milk. So gradually there'll be no milk, no rice, no wheat, no sugar. These are stated. Where you'll get nourishment? And the mango, there'll be no pulp, only the seed. These are predicted. After all, you have to live by nature's gift, but these things will be finished. And Russia there is, already, there is no rice, there is no fruit, there is no vegetable. Simply we eat meat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore they cannot understand God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not they. They understand, the people understand. But this, this rascal government. That I have studied. Russian people are not bad. They're as good as others. But this is . . . just like in India, still the mass of people, they're very good. And too mu. . . yesterday we saw, all rascals, all these politician canvassing, all big, big fat rascals.

Devotee: We were noting that when they were giving their lectures at that opening of the train station, they seemed very demonic.

Prabhupāda: All demonic.

Brahmānanda: Their faces were very shifty.

Devotee: So much anxiety and so much political dealings.

Prabhupāda: All demon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All very fatty.

Prabhupāda: They, they . . . by others' money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The peo . . . I didn't see one village man who was fatty. Not one.

Prabhupāda: Not one. They're extracting money from them, making them intoxicated and exploiting. That's all. This is the fault. Very precarious condition. (break) So if you can make one example . . . (break) India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India. Simply. We have got enough land. Give them enough food. Make them stout and strong, both the animal and man. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let them hear. Everything will be all right. Everything will be ideal.

Haṁsadūta: No one can object, either.

Prabhupāda: No. (chuckles)

Haṁsadūta: That's the beauty.

Prabhupāda: Make the whole field green, rule sumptuously, let the animals eat, let the man eat. They feel satisfaction and they . . . he knows some people, they are being exploited, animals are being exploited by these rogues, fat, big, big, fat rogues. And discovering some nonsense, scientific means, and people are starving. There is no food, and they're busy in discovering scientific method.

Yaśodānandana: Atomic bomb.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśodānandana: Atomic bomb for India. That is the greatest paradox.

Prabhupāda: There was a picture. Some deputation came to the minister that "We are starving. There is no food." The administrator, he went, "Of course, I have no information that you have no . . . but we're advanced now. Come tomorrow, there will be radio message. Radio message, radio. There's television, hah, television . . ."

Yaśodānandana: Television.

Prabhupāda: "Television, tomorrow. From tomorrow you'll have television."

Yaśodānandana: Instead of food.

Prabhupāda: Instead of food you'll get television. (laughs) Advanced. This is going on. "I am hungry, sir. What shall I do with television?" That is the real answer. Say, "I'm hungry. What shall I do with the television?" But he's pacifying, "Don't worry, you'll get television." This is science.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheaters.

Prabhupāda: This is science. People, for want of sufficient nourishment, they are becoming dwarf, and they are discovering scientific method.

Brahmānanda: Intoxication. By increasing the intoxication the desire for food reduces. You eat less.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are very much dizzy. And little hunger satisfy with meat. That's all. That is going on in the Western country. The drinking . . . I have seen in airplane, bottles after bottle they are drinking.

Devotee: Every day.

Yaśodānandana: Actually, they have run a survey in America, and they have found out that the greatest drug-takers are housewives. The housewives, they are taking these weight-watching pills, and they are addictive amphetamines. They are taking them, and it gives them energy, and they don't want to eat so much. So they are very skinny. They drink a little coffee and smoke cigarettes and take some pills, and that is all, during the day. Finished. And they remain very slim. And they think this is nice. So gradually they are replacing foodstuffs with pills.

Prabhupāda: That is nature's way, because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole civilization is becoming expert in killing and dying. That's all.

Prabhupāda: You have got some agricultural experience?

Haṁsadūta: Not at all.

Prabhupāda: Not at all. Anyway, that not very difficult.

Haṁsadūta: No. I can take advice from the experts. That man with the white beard there, he's supposed to know very much. He's supposed to be very expert, and he speaks English.

Devotee: He's a paṇḍita.

Haṁsadūta: He's supposed to have agricultural experience.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka had no agricultural experience.

Prabhupāda: Any city boy, what he'll . . . (break) (end)