770602 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770602DC-VRNDAVAN - June 02, 1977 - 32:30 Minutes

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . this summer and he can come. We can provide free lodging and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should be provided free lodging.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can invite about two hundred guests and have a week-long conference.

Prabhupāda: If they voluntarily give contribution, that's all right. Otherwise we shall provide. We have got guesthouse. It is very nice. Even they do not pay, we shall pay.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can make a scientific propaganda. And we can also do the same thing in Bombay. Bombay will be bigger.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have been trained up (chuckles) for this purpose. (break)

Girirāja: So we drafted a will, including the trust for the properties of India and some of the other . . .

Prabhupāda: Will? Will, there will be direction that, "Management should be done like this." That's all.

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can say in court case that, "This temple will be in charge of this person, this temple . . ."

Rāmeśvara: Yes, just like you said.

Girirāja: So we've included those points and the points in your brief will. Should I read it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: Then we can type it. "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, settlor of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and disciple of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda 108 Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja Prabhupāda, presently residing at Śrī Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandir in Vṛndāvana, make this, my last will. 1. The Governing Body Commission, GBC, will be the trustees of the entire International Society for Krishna Consciousness."

Prabhupāda: You can . . . then there will be question, "The trust deed will be given? Then there will tax."

Girirāja: No, because the ISKCON trust is already there, and ISKCON is already tax exempt. The only difficulty is if you create a new trust.

Prabhupāda: No, no new trust.

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: Instead of trustees . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Use a different word.

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Rāmeśvara: Not to apply in trust.

Girirāja: Oh, I see.

Rāmeśvara: It's a different word.

Prabhupāda: Supreme managers.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Supreme managers. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Or the ultimate managers, like that.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The ultimate executives?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the executors.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ultimate executors.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or commissioners. You have . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes, commissioners.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Commissioner is good, 'cause it's already . . .

Prabhupāda: Use such word.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Use a word that's proper.

Girirāja: Okay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For now just use one word.

Girirāja: "2. Each temple will be a trust property . . ."

Prabhupāda: Again "trust" word.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Again "ISKCON property."

Girirāja: Okay, we can change that wording.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Girirāja: ". . . and will be managed by three committee members."

Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes.

Girirāja: "The system of management will continue as it is now. There is no need of any change. 3. The property in India will be managed by the following committee members: A. Properties at Śrī Māyāpur Dhāma, Panihati, Haridaspur, and Calcutta—Gurukṛpā Swami, Jayapatākā Swami, Bhavānanda Goswami and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa Adhikārī; B. At Vṛndāvana—Gurukṛpā Swami, Akṣayānanda Swami and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa Adhikārī; C. At Bombay—Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Girirāja dāsa Brahmacārī and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa Adhikārī; D. At Bhuvaneśvara—Gaura-Govinda Swami, Jayapatākā Swami and Bhāgavata dāsa Brahmacārī; E. At Hyderabad—Mahāṁśa Swami, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa Adhikārī and Bali-mardana dāsa Adhikārī."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Śrīdhara.

Girirāja: "And Śrīdhara Goswami. The committee members who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of the death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said committee members, a successor committee member or committee members may be appointed by the remaining committee members, provided that the new committee member is an initiated disciple and following strictly all the rules and regulations of ISKCON as detailed in the books of His Divine Grace . . ." Oh. ". . . detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three or more than five committee members acting at one time. 4. I have created, developed and organized the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and as such, I hereby will that none of the immovable properties in India in the name of ISKCON shall ever be mortgaged, borrowed against . . ."

Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Everywhere.

Rāmeśvara: See, in America sometimes we will borrow against the temple to "fry the fish in its own oil." So we wanted to make this language just for India, that they can never even mortgage it or risk it in any way.

Prabhupāda: All right. But outside they can do?

Rāmeśvara: Outside they have . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā Mahārāja just said that the temple buildings should never be mortgaged. Other buildings might be, but what about the temple buildings? Just like in Los Angeles you have many buildings. The temple building should never be mortgaged, but others may be.

Prabhupāda: There is a word, devāyatana, Indian. Devāyatana property can never be mortgaged, sold or risked. (indistinct background whispering)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America . . . just like in New York there's a twelve-, thirteen-story building. The temple only occupies the ground floor. They can't mortgage . . . sometimes if they want to get other properties, they may want to use the asset of that building. If they have this clause, they won't be able to.

Rāmeśvara: Also sometimes we have got one property in America, and you have allowed us to sell it. Just like in Miami we had to sell the property in Coconut Grove and we bought that big farm.

Prabhupāda: No, with the consent of the GBC . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Consent of the GBC.

Prabhupāda: Like that.

Jayapatākā: Properties in America can't be sold unless . . .

Rāmeśvara: We had a GBC meeting, and we made a system so that there are three GBC men assigned to every American property, and they can't even be mortgaged without the signature of these three men.

Prabhupāda: And that declaration should be taken. That you are already taking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am in the process of getting them all, oaths of allegiance.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Oath of allegiance. That should be maintained.

Rāmeśvara: We've already fixed it up for the American temples, with three GBC men assigned to each building. But it hasn't been mentioned in the will.

Prabhupāda: No, why not?

Rāmeśvara: It should be. So we'll have to add a clause . . .

Prabhupāda: Add it.

Rāmeśvara: . . . to deal with the other properties.

Prabhupāda: Add it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Add it right now, Prabhupāda says: "Temples outside of India . . ." That's how it should be worded. "Centers" or "Temples outside of . . ."

Rāmeśvara: "Properties outside of India."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Properties outside of India may only be . . ." I think we can say: "in principle should not be . . ."

Prabhupāda: There should be inventory of all the properties in this will.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Inventory?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this will there should be inventory of all properties.

Rāmeśvara: Now Jayatīrtha is getting that, so we can have him send it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then the trustees for each of those properties . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't do . . . make trustees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean the committee members of each property should be mentioned within this will.

Rāmeśvara: For all the properties outside the world . . . all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. In-charge. In-charge committee.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In-charge committee.

Rāmeśvara: In the world.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants this will to be, you know, a very complete document.

Rāmeśvara: And then, as the time goes by and we buy new properties, we will have to add them to the will.

Prabhupāda: As far as possible, give protection.

Rāmeśvara: "Properties outside of India on principle should never be sold."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this will will take a little bit of time to get all those lists and everything together. In the meantime we have that other will.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the meantime we have that short, brief will. And this may take a little time to . . .

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said to write this now, so . . . "Properties outside of India in principle should never be sold."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. "But if the need arises, they may be . . ."

Girirāja: Do we have a list of these?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If the need arises . . .

Rāmeśvara: "They may be sold or mortgaged, etc . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "By the consent . . ."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Sold or mortgaged, never.

Girirāja: Prabhupāda doesn't want us to put in "can be sold or mortgaged . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about mortgaged? Just like, as an example, that New York building. They'll . . . when they pay it off, that building . . .

Rāmeśvara: They can get a million-dollar loan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can get a loan for a million dollars.

Rāmeśvara: And buy another building.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or so many buildings.

Girirāja: But then there's risk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you consider.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's risk right now. There's a risk right now.

Rāmeśvara: The only time they should ever be sold is in some emergency? Why should . . .?

Prabhupāda: With the consent of all the GBC.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the point is "With the consent of the GBC committee members."

Prabhupāda: Better not to be sold.

Rāmeśvara: We have that. "In principle should never be sold, but if the need arises, they may be sold or mortgaged with the consent of the GBC."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Committee members.

Prabhupāda: Outside India.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, this is outside India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India they can never be. It's irrevocable.

Rāmeśvara: "But if the need arises, they may be sold or mortgaged with the consent of the GBC committee members who are listed as follows."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you can say: "The properties and their committee members are listed as follows."

Rāmeśvara: Right. "The GBC committee members."

Jayapatākā: Not all of them. (indistinct background talking)

Girirāja: We can put the cities.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja is suggesting that there's no need to list the address or in details.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just simply the city.

Rāmeśvara: We can do that right after we meet with Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we can do that.

Girirāja: So ". . . shall never be mortgaged, borrowed against, sold, transferred or in any way encumbered, disposed of or alienated."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the Indian properties.

Prabhupāda: Indian property is devāyatana bhavana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Write that down, dev . . .

Prabhupāda: Devāyatana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devatra.

Prabhupāda: Devāyatana. Hm?

Jayapatākā: Devāyatana means trust. Devāyatana means trust.

Prabhupāda: All right, don't make if it cannot be so . . . (indistinct)

Girirāja: "This direction is irrevocable. 5. I declare, say and confirm that all the properties, both movable and immovable, which stand in my name, including current accounts, saving accounts and fixed deposits in various banks, are the properties and assets of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and the heirs and successors of my previous family or anyone claiming through them have no right, claim or interest in these properties whatsoever, save and except as provided hereinafter. Although the money which is in my personal name in every bank is being spent for ISKCON and it will belong to ISKCON, I have kept a few deposits specifically named for allocating a monthly allowance of Rs. 1,000 to the members of my former family—two sons, two daughters, and wife. After the deaths of the members of my former family these specific deposits, or this interest and savings, will become the property of ISKCON for the purpose of the trust, and the descendants of my former family or anyone claiming to be them shall not be allowed any further allowance."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says that the deposits are "mentioned therein."

Girirāja: No.

Rāmeśvara: It just says that they are specifically named somewhere.

Girirāja: It's except for these, it's all the deposits of ISKCON. It says. We weren't sure about this, but since Mr. Sharma mentioned it, we put: "I hereby appoint . . ."—and then we've kept some blank space—". . . to act as executors of this will. I have made this will this blank day of June, 1977, in possession of full sense and sound mind, without any persuasion, force or compulsion from anybody. Witnesses, 1. 2. 3."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Ghosh should be one of the witnesses. According to Mr. Sharma, if a doctor witnesses, it's very good, attending physician.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: So what should we do about the clause which appoints the executors?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean? The people acting to see . . .

Girirāja: They're responsible to see that the will is carried out.

Rāmeśvara: They'll see that it's registered and it's brought before the probate . . .

Prabhupāda: How many executors?

Girirāja: I think he suggested two or three.

Prabhupāda: No, he suggested not less than three. Up to seven or eleven.

Girirāja: Oh.

Rāmeśvara: Originally we told him that all the GBC are executors, and he said: "But out of them, just pick a few. It is a technical thing." 'Cause the GBC are already mentioned as the heirs or the managers of what you are giving.

Prabhupāda: So I'll give you seven names. (pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our idea is to finish this will business as soon as possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll give you tomorrow. I'll think over this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Any more, Girirāja?

Girirāja: That's all for the will.

Rāmeśvara: There's one other item that has been recommended by several persons, Prabhupāda, and that is that the will is only a legal document after the maker of the will has departed, so in the interim period, they have suggested an affidavit for any, say, properties or fixed deposits that are in your personal name, and this affidavit would simply state that the purpose of these fixed deposits and properties is for ISKCON. In that way the government will never be able to exact any taxes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some wording there?

Rāmeśvara: Do you want me to read it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If Prabhupāda likes.

Rāmeśvara: So we have prepared an affidavit. Shall we read it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rāmeśvara: "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, disciple of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda 108 Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja Prabhupāda and settlor of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, at present residing at the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Temple in Vṛndāvana, hereby solemnly declare, say and confirm as follows: 1. That I am the Founder-Ācārya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, known as ISKCON, a society registered under the Society Registration Act of 1860, with its headquarters at Juhu, Bombay, and branches at . . ." And then it's to be filled in. "2. That some properties with movable and immovable . . ." What is this word? (indistinct background discussion) ". . . have been donated to me by the devotees of the International Society of Krishna Consciousness or purchased or otherwise acquired by me in my name, which still stand in my personal name; 3. That I hereby categorically declare and say that I am just a benāmadāra(?) of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness . . ."

Prabhupāda: What is benāmadāra?

Girirāja: It means . . . just like in the Chand Society. Due to some reason we could not take it in the beginning in the name of BBT, so we appointed someone to keep in his name, but actually it is not his. He is only the benāmadāra on behalf of the society.

Prabhupāda: Oh, benāmadāra.

Rāmeśvara: ". . . that I am the benāmadāra of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness in respect of the said properties, and I hold and do hold these same in trust as a trustee for the said society." No, we take out this phrase, "trust." ". . . that I hold the same for the said society."

Girirāja: No, "as the Founder-Ācārya . . ."

Rāmeśvara: ". . . as the Founder-Ācārya; 4. That I further declare, say and confirm that I have no personal claim or interest in these said properties or any . . ." It says, "position alone . . ." ". . . and the same solely belongs to the said society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, absolutely. That which is stated above is true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief. Witnessed . . ." The witnesses swear to that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So if this document is prepared, it does not have to be advertised, but if at any point there is some contention, we can show that this was . . .

Prabhupāda: Made.

Rāmeśvara: . . . made in June of 1977, that this is the . . .

Prabhupāda: Registered.

Rāmeśvara: Registered. That that is the intention. He said . . . Mr. Sharma said this will be sufficient to avoid any income tax or other tax on such holdings.

Prabhupāda: That I want. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Because sometimes they've said: "Oh, it's in your Guru Mahārāja's personal name," and you always said: "It's not my personal money." This will show that.

Prabhupāda: Benāmadāra.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. 'Cause actually, whenever you told us to buy properties, we always wrote your name and then always "Founder-Ācārya of the International Society for . . ."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So do it. Manage nicely.

Jayapatākā: We had a . . . regarding the letter I had written, that ISKCON Food Relief has got some liability at Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: No, that you discuss. Don't bother my head.

Jayapatākā: No, we just . . . (Rāmeśvara whispering)

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, this afternoon we had a meeting of the BBT trustees, and we were discussing the situation of the Bengali printing. There are some manuscripts lying, and we want to print them as soon as possible so that selling can increase.

Prabhupāda: So Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, give them money.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have already given seventy thousand rupees.

Rāmeśvara: The situation is that the seventy thousand rupees is already invested in Gītār Gāns, and all the rest of the money Gopāla has . . .

Jayapatākā: Gītār Gāns and Bhāgavat Darshan and . . .

Prabhupāda: So you are not selling?

Rāmeśvara: They are.

Prabhupāda: Utilize that money. You have taken already seventy thousand. That's all.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It was more than seventy thousand, I think.

Prabhupāda: Unlimited, we cannot give you money.

Jayapatākā: No, but if we could have fifty thousand more, then we could print the Bhagavad-gītā and a few other covers at one time, which would increase the distribution.

Prabhupāda: That you consult.

Rāmeśvara: We considered it carefully, and Jayapatākā says that if you have more books available at one time, the people will simply buy four, five, six different books. So it will increase the selling and then collection. Therefore he is requesting a loan.

Prabhupāda: Loan, that's all right. Whatever loan you have, let us see how you are paying.

Rāmeśvara: He is already paying the money back to an account that has been set up with him and Gopāla in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: How much he has returned?

Rāmeśvara: How much have you paid back originally?

Jayapatākā: Only one payment has come through. I paid the first thing.

Rāmeśvara: No, no, no, of the seventy thousand.

Jayapatākā: No. Seventy thousand? We have no debt with BBT. We're paid up.

Rāmeśvara: How much have you paid so far?

Jayapatākā: Since April I've paid twenty-one thousand.

Rāmeśvara: He's already paid twenty-one thousand rupees of it back.

Prabhupāda: So you can take fifty thousand also. If they have returned twenty-one thousand, you can pay fifty thousand loan more.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can pay fifty thousand . . .?

Rāmeśvara: He'll take a loan.

Prabhupāda: Give and take, give and take, give and take.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, I've given them seventy thousand . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. They have returned twenty-one thousand.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then you can pay another fifty thousand. In this way transaction will go on.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At the present moment BBT can't give them so much money.

Prabhupāda: So if you give them something. Twenty-one thousand give them, thirty thousand. Then again . . . if they are returning, you give them. Give and take, give and take.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But that returning which we are doing, we are putting in a separate Bengali . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is returning.

Rāmeśvara: Our idea is that from all the money that is collected, we will reinvest it in Bengali books.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: So in addition, he wanted to borrow from your own BBT, because Gopāla says that all his money is tied up for printing in English and Hindi and the other languages.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At least for six months.

Rāmeśvara: So that is his request.

Prabhupāda: That he can get in September.

Jayapatākā: What?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Prabhupāda said, "In September."

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just received a telegram from America about the book selling. It is from our main warehouse in Los Angeles. They report that there has been increase this month over last month. For Back to Godhead the increase has been seventy percent.

Prabhupāda: Hmm!

Rāmeśvara: For small books like Perfection of Yoga, it has increased forty-five percent. For medium books like Kṛṣṇa trilogy and Īśopaniṣad, it has increased forty-five percent, and for the hardbound books like Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it has doubled—two hundred percent increase.

Jayapatākā: In one month.

Prabhupāda: This is very good.

Girirāja: No, that means tripled.

Rāmeśvara: Two hundred percent increase.

Girirāja: One hundred percent increase is doubled, so two hundred percent . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tripled. Tripled, the book distribution.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Big books.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Simply by your word, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is happening.

Rāmeśvara: Everyone is now wearing these "Double It" buttons. The whole movement is simply thinking of doubling book distribution, doubling it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our real mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That's all. This is the opportunity of speaking the words given by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana or Kṛṣṇa are the same. So that's all right. No more talking.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: I'm planning to take it away from him, but I can't find him. I think by the time I return to America . . .

Prabhupāda: It is very convincing.

Rādhā-vallabha: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: "You may pay me six hundred dollars for fifty . . . (indistinct) . . ."

Rādhā-vallabha: I've been trying to find him. As soon as I find him, I'll bring you the book back from him.

Prabhupāda: Still paying him money?

Rādhā-vallabha: No, no, I stopped when you told me in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Cheats his wife and children, this crooked man. Cheating people. Tendency is there. Where he is?

Rādhā-vallabha: When?

Prabhupāda: Where he is now? (break) (end)