770715 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770715R1-VRNDAVAN - July 15, 1977 - 56:42 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . are completely against us. Phew. He says Girirāja and himself are meeting leading Hindus like Sadaji Vitlal, etc. He said: "We will have to bring up the Calcutta incident in Parliament." He says this has to be brought up in Parliament. "It was just like Uganda." Just like what happened in Uganda. Whole thing is a plot of the Communists.

Prabhupāda: It has gone to the Central Government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that. I guess you must have got that information from the newspaper. I didn't know that. I mean just see. Fifty of them together stealing the grass. That's organized. Two hundred and fifty people waiting in the bushes, knowing that we will try to stop them from stealing, and suddenly they all rush into the gate, destroy the gate, cut the wires, cut the telephone line, destroy the waterpumps. Every one of these things is criminal. We did not do anything wrong, no wrong in any case. And yet they arrest us. The American government . . . actually this should be pushed from the American government. That will have tremendous effect. We should let the American government defend us.

Prabhupāda: Is the Consulate has come?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Consulate went to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: We already said that this is a Communist plan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They stripped a woman naked. Look at how these Muslims behave and after all these years of our distributing prasādam, and still they act like this.

Prabhupāda: They are Communist group. Muslims are not so bad, but the Communists . . . they are . . . Communists are creating as Hindu-Muslim or like that, religious group. He has written something about Communists?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "Since the Communists took power in West Bengal, the police are caring less for religious groups." Before, the police would always give religious groups protection. Now they don't care. I mean just see, they didn't come for two hours, and then they said, "Come down and file a complaint." And when we came down, immediately arrested. This same thing happened in New York. They told Ādi-keśa Mahārāja and the other boy, Trayī dāsa, "You come down to file some statement." As soon as they came down they said, "You're under arrest." Same trick. (break) . . . infirmary and they come in and they . . . I mean, what kind of . . . I never heard of that. Someone is in the infirmary being treated and they beat him worse. And the newspapers all report it the other way.

Prabhupāda: Because the government is Communist.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The newspapers are being told what to print. They're afraid to print anything else. But foreign press can print anything. And other press, Delhi press, Bombay press, they can print anything. This was dated the eleventh.

Prabhupāda: Government published this. The Statesman, therefore, has not given any description.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't notice. Here's a little news clipping. It's probably the same. You probably have seen this already. This is from Indian Express. "Why Krishna Mandir Men Fired Salvo." By a . . . "An attack on the devotees and destruction of the premises of ISKCON Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, led to the shooting incident, according to Mr. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Dāsa, Secretary, Bombay center of the organization. Mr. Dāsa, in his statement issued on Monday, said the news from their sources in Bengal stated that on July 8th about fifty miscreants were found encroaching on our agricultural field and stealing our crops. When a devotee requested them to stop, they became angry and beat him up, fracturing his skull. Nearly 250 supporters of the miscreants . . ." Notice how they're not going to use "Muslims." They say "miscreants." They don't say "Muslims." Probably the paper wants to avoid. This is a hot issue. No one wants to write "Hindu-Muslim." "Nearly 250 supporters of the miscreants armed with sticks and spears suddenly appeared from behind the bushes and all of them entered the temple area. Mr. Dāsa said the miscreants beat several more devotees, including the Gurukula school headmaster, whose both hands and skull were broken. They also stripped naked a female disciple. They cut off electrical connections, telephone lines and water pipes. The police did not come for two hours, and meanwhile the group destroyed the gate, broke windows and stole two bulls. According to ISKCON Secretary, as a final resort, one ran for a gun, appropriately licensed and registered with the government, and fired a shot in the air. As the group persisted, he fired again into the ground, which injured eleven of the miscreants. All of those injured have been discharged from the hospital." They're not injured seriously at all. "Mr. Dāsa said the police advised the devotees to go to the Krishnanagar police station to report the incident, and when they did go there they were arrested. Two devotees in critical condition were also detained in the jail hospital. Asked why our men have been kept in jail, the police replied, 'As a precaution.' "

Prabhupāda: This report is already there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next . . . says the next is, "Probe Urged Into Krishna Cultists. Chief Minister Jyoti Basu has urged the Central Government to investigate how some of the foreign Vaiṣṇavas of Māyāpur temple of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness who clashed with the villagers last weekend could return to India after extradition from the country." And he's against us. Naturally, he's a big Communist. "In his report on the incident to Home Minister Charan Singh, Mr. Basu has drawn the Center's attention to reports that these foreigners came back to India by obtaining new passports and visas. This aspect, he felt, should be inquired into." He's against us. "The US Consulate visited the āśrama and met some of the American Vaiṣṇavas. The Consulate has not lodged any complaint with the government about the Friday incident."

Prabhupāda: I think he has gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This whole thing is planned by the Communists. Will the government understand that? The Central Government?

Prabhupāda: They surely understand.

Upendra: They're diverting the issue now.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there is no issue from their side. Upendra Prabhu is saying that they are diverting the issue, means they're bringing attention to how our men got here. Their whole point is that that is actually their intention. They want to create a situation whereby they would force us to be thrown out of the country. That's their intention. They want to drive us away.

Prabhupāda: This is published in?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is published in the Indian Express. Daily newspaper.

Prabhupāda: Bombay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay. July 12th. There's a lot of touchy items here. One very touchy item is this Hindu-Muslim thing. And this . . . the Communists are very intelligent. They purposely chose . . . (break) What about the actual ministers? Cabinet ministers?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Cabinet ministers there are sober, Morarji Desai and some of them. This Vajpayee.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vajpayee, right. That means that they took it that we were a threat. They are feeling the weight of our movement.

Prabhupāda: They are practically seeing that we are going village to village and people are receiving us. So if these Americans push on the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, naturally people will take it. And that was my idea from the beginning, that if the Americans become Vaiṣṇavas, then others will be. (bells sound) It is four?

Upendra: Three. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa men. They want Bengal completely godless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's interesting to see how the Chief Minister Basu, he concentrates on only one point—"They have entered India illegally, which means now they must be asked to leave." That's the only thing he's pointed on, this one point. It's like it indicates his whole motive: "Get them out somehow." Oh, it's a very clever plan. They knew we would defend, and then on the pretext that we're taking the offense, arresting. And they knew already that we were entering with these passports changed. They already knew it. Very clever plan. The thing is that this is very much, of course . . . it is very, very harmful to our preaching work for the time being in Bengal.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think any village will receive us nicely now. They'll think that we're . . .

Prabhupāda: No. It will be in our favor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the long run.

Prabhupāda: No. Very easily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very what, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Very soon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the truth will come out.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You think the Central Government will take action?

Prabhupāda: I think.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think that we should approach them, or will they do it on their own?

Prabhupāda: No. It is already gone there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Chief Minister has sent it there.

Prabhupāda: Chief Minister, before catching him as thief, he has submitted that "I am not a thief." Before catching him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking this. "I'm not stealing." Someone's in the house.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To keep his position clear, he has approached that, "I am not thief." It is like that. Just like I'm going to catch you as thief. Before my catching, you come and say: "No, no, I am not a thief," then you are a thief. Do you understand the logic? I am going to capture you as a thief. Now, before my capturing, you approach me that, "I am not a thief." That means you are a thief.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's saying . . . his silence on all the points except this one point . . .

Prabhupāda: And the behavior of the police.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Indicates that everything else is wrong. His silence in reporting that the police wanted . . .

Prabhupāda: Not only silence. In favor of . . . or against us. Now if the Central Government properly inquires, the whole thing will be discovered.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And at least they're going to have to get our side. They're going to have to get our side.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there are certain indisputable facts. For example . . .

Prabhupāda: Big, big ministers are in favor of our movement, Morarji Desai and Vajpayee.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But certain things are going to have to come out. For instance, two men seriously injured are refused outside medical treatment. There's nothing they can . . . that can be proven.

Prabhupāda: No, so many other things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who gives them the right to cut the telephone wire? That's criminal. That is against the law of the government. You're cutting government property. That's not our property. Telephone wires, all those things, electric wire.

Prabhupāda: That is purposefully planned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And how was it that 250 men suddenly were waiting in the bushes?

Prabhupāda: This is all planned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now we've finally got the facts on this case. We practically already knew it. I think that actually this will probably come out in all the newspapers. They held a press conference in Bombay. That means it will hit all the newspapers in India.

Prabhupāda: Oh. They held?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. They held a press conference in Bombay. It says . . . here it is. "The Press release, which has been . . . we are issuing the correct story and requesting the journals to publish the correction."

Prabhupāda: Who said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopāla. And Rāmeśvara is doing it from the international side. It came in all the papers. Imagine, they're getting calls from Rāmeśvara in Los Angeles, Jayatīrtha in Africa. Jayatīrtha, he visited Africa recently. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . they would have done. The first news was that, "The founder was not there." Otherwise the police would have charged me that, "He has given order."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Order to fire.

Prabhupāda: "Fire it." That we shall see by and by. Police can do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa would never let that happen to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But that very word that, "The founder was not there," that means they were expecting that if I would have been there, they would have charged that "He is in the spot, and he has ordered."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like all over the world that it's a little dangerous now. The deprogrammers, they could also say: "He is the one behind it."

Prabhupāda: That they are saying.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would get some kind of court order. At least in Vṛndāvana you're safe. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Two hours for the police to come.

Prabhupāda: They did not like to come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that was part of the plan, not to come. "Let them have enough time to destroy everything and cause injury. Then we'll come afterwards."

Prabhupāda: They do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that will also be investigated, why it took them two hours. That's worthy of investigation.

Prabhupāda: And telephone was cut.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. We didn't cut our own telephone lines. Whoever cut it should be taken to court. Criminal. Destroying government property. There's no mention here of a cow, that we beat any cow. None of these things are mentioned.

Prabhupāda: So many stories fabricated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty men stealing our crops. I've seen in Māyāpur. When men steal crops, three, four men go. I never saw fifty men. Highly organized. They must have paid them to do this.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And another thing that they probably told them is that we're trying to get their land by acquisition. "But we won't let them ever get your land. Now you do this. Drive them out of here. We won't arrest you."

Prabhupāda: That is a different issue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may have used that, though.

Prabhupāda: The real issue is the Communists do not want any religious movement in Bengal. That is real issue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we're the only one left. Ramakrishna Mission is not religious.

Prabhupāda: Oh, it is not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gauḍīya Maṭha is ineffective. And the Christians are not big.

Prabhupāda: These rascal, I mean to say, guṇḍā class, they do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ramakrishna also does not. They say that Caitanya had men, in Orissa also, the people emasculated. In Orissa they say that since Mahārāja Pratāparudra met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he lost his kṣatriya strength. He was very powerful king, but since he met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he became effeminate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your answer to that?

Prabhupāda: That is the Orissa government's principle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is our answer to that? Our reply?

Prabhupāda: What you can reply if you conclude something like . . . they have no idea of spiritual life. This is disrupting, na dhanaṁ na janam (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). We don't want this. And they want it. So how you can reply? Everyone wants this, and we say: "Don't want." How you can make compromise? Therefore they say "emasculated." In your country also. "Why? What is the wrong, illicit sex? What is the wrong, intoxication?" They say: "Brainwash. Why not?" Is it not? It is very difficult to push on this movement. Still, we are going. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. (pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will you try to translate this afternoon, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Young woman at dead of night, beautiful woman, came to Haridāsa Ṭhākura to offer her body, and he denied. Who will appreciate this? (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We appreciate.

Prabhupāda: No, you appreciate, but in the modern world who will appreciate?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say something is wrong with Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Prabhupāda: Brainwash.

Upendra: Unhealthy. And these Arabs, they were here visiting the temple. They saw a brahmacārī, and they explained brahmacārī means celibate. "Oh, he is sick." "Unhealthy," they said.

Prabhupāda: General idea is "How a young man can live without a young woman?" Not now. This is the material idea. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Oh, you are after woman? Oh, you are more than committing suicide."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Diametrically opposed.

Prabhupāda: Hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato pi (CC Madhya 11.8): "You are after woman? It is more dangerous than drinking poison." Who will accept? And Western country—"Oh, without young woman, what is life?" Madhudviṣa became victimized by woman. So he became so ashamed that he left that, "My career is finished now." He's conscious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is . . .?

Prabhupāda: Conscious that, "I have been victimized by woman, a sannyāsī. So my career in this institution finished." He knows that. Nobody will take him seriously, therefore he left his daṇḍa, went away. Good son, another, but he cannot. Therefore several times I called him; he did not come that, "My career is finished." This consciousness, where you'll find? And here, even a man is fallen, he's also conscious, "How much I am fallen." (break) . . . is that when a person is fallen, he is conscious that "I am fallen." (break) It was beaten. (pause) (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "You told us about three years ago when we first reported some of our success to you that this was only a beginning. Little did we know at that time how much truth was in this declaration. Now we are literally seeing your fame being spread all over the three worlds."

Prabhupāda: Slow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Everywhere we go, people either know about you or they are very eager to find out about Kṛṣṇa and yourself by reading your books. Anyone who has distributed your books in the Communist countries will support my claim that nowhere in the world are people more appreciative of your books." He's been everywhere, Prabhupāda, and he says that your books are more appreciated in the Communist countries than anywhere else in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are hungry. (break) What to speak of saintly men. (break) . . . honest, satisfied with simple living. Where do . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: People don't even know those things at all.

Prabhupāda: Everyone was satisfied with simple living. They did not want much income.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now everyone is in anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām (SB 7.5.5). Because they were Kṛṣṇa conscious, there was no anxiety.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That could be the only explanation. What about the Mussulmen?

Prabhupāda: They were also happy. They are also religious, according to their own way. Within, say, seventy years so much change has taken place. Horrible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any valuable . . . any benefits that took place? Any good things? Only . . .

Prabhupāda: Change. Change for the worse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even in America things were better.

Prabhupāda: There things are changing fast.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we keep on going strong.

Prabhupāda: Every middle-class man could hold some festival, society feast very occasionally. Now cannot, they cannot even receive a guest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. In fact the government for a while passed a law that prasādam could not be served to any more than so many people, such and such amount of people. They were prohibiting. I remember a couple of years ago we were trying to get āṭā or something, and they said: "Oh, no, you cannot have any big meetings where you feed people. We are short of things, so you cannot." "Food shortage," they said.

Prabhupāda: So they are eating. That means you want to keep people starving.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And every species is eating. We don't find that the birds have a food shortage.

Prabhupāda: It is not government. Just see to the head of the government, that Bose? He's planning how to cut down religious movement, keeping aside.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like a little foot massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. (pause) We read from Bhāgavatam they held meeting that, "We must shift from this place. The demons are disturbing. For the benefit of Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma we must change this place." So the meeting was held in the morning, and they decided, "Let us immediately leave." So . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How long did it take them to shift?

Prabhupāda: Just hearing, adyaiva, today, and immediately began. So how simple living was.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they could shift in one day they must have been living so simple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at this Mr. Myer. He has to go flying down to Madras, close his account, do this, do this. How complicated life has become. And they were householders.

Prabhupāda: And they shifted very organizedly. The cows, tuck bag, then the guards with bows and arrows, then old men, women, children in carts.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were in carts.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By procession.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The early pioneers in America, they would also go in the wagons, covered wagons. Now I understand we have one wagon going in America. It's heading towards Washington under the banner of "Simple Living and High Thinking." That will be unique . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And everywhere, how they were well dressed, well fed, and rich in milk products. When called, people, the brahmin give in charity cows, not at all poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were reading that one king gave fourteen lakhs' elephants covered in gold, and another king was giving something like 21,000 cows to each brāhmaṇa. Who could imagine? Now the only kind of cows anyone will give you is those that don't give milk.

Prabhupāda: The cows were decorated with cloth, gold necklace and heaps of grains.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cow horns were sometimes with gold on the end.

Prabhupāda: That means gold and silver and jewels and cloth, sumpt . . . more than . . . milk products, grains. This was richness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now all there is is tin and plastic. Tin can. Food is in the tin cans, and you eat it off of plastic.

Prabhupāda: And paper plate.

Upendra: Hmm. Paper plate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I always used the example that whenever a great personality in the Vedic time, when Kṛṣṇa was there, whenever . . . there was shower of flowers from the demigods. Now, when the astronauts went, they throw confetti.

Prabhupāda: Where they went? All bogus.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were rewarded by people throwing cut-up newspaper on their heads. That's considered a great . . . when someone gets this . . . it's called ticker-tape parade.

Prabhupāda: Purposefully the Western money has been taken. What is the meaning of? The people are so . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Jayādvaita has called their number in the Back to Godhead article: demons. Right out he calls them demons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to describe the demon very nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you described them. He was just repeating what you have written in Bhagavad-gītā. (sound of hammers banging)

Prabhupāda: Where work is being . . .? In this building or the other building? (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what we were wondering. I think it's the guesthouse. That's not necessary . . . (indistinct) . . . the guests also like to rest after lunchtime. Well, anyway, even though the times have changed, you have, by spreading this movement, at least in all of our temples, it is at least one hundred years behind the times—peaceful. Everyone marks that in our temples it is very peaceful. People like it. I know when I joined I went to the temple, and the thing that I loved was that I felt that it was very protective, that nothing could harm me when I was in the temple. (end)