730910 - Conversation - Stockholm

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730910R1-STOCKHOLM - September 10, 1973 - 68:43 Minutes

(Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist)

Prabhupāda: Somebody is coming?

Devotee: Yes.

Pradyumna: She says that, erm, it says, "The Lord . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa tasted four kinds of transcendental mellows in devotional service in His form of Śacīnandana, the son of Mother Śacī, and at last, in order to understand Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī's ecstatic love for Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Lord has assumed the form of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Amongst all kinds of devotional mentality, the attitude of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is considered to be the superex . . . superexcellent. No other devotee than Kṛṣṇa Hims . . ." It says: "No other devotee than Kṛṣṇa Himself can assume such part to taste the ecstatic situation"? Part? " . . . to taste the ecstatic situation of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. Therefore, He, Himself, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: When Śrī Cai . . . when, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is that small?

Śrutakīrti: Spoon?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: Maybe, it may be in the bag.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Pradyumna: And then, "When Śrī Kṛṣṇa assumed the form of four-handed Nārāyaṇa, the gopīs . . ."

Prabhupāda: And where is that plate?

Śrutakīrti: That I have also.

Prabhupāda: Why is it? Keep it here.

Śrutakīrti: Yeah.

Pradyumna: So, "When Śrī Kṛṣṇa assumed the form of four-handed Nārāyaṇa, the gopīs did not take very much care for this form. They were not very much intimate . . ." No.

Prabhupāda: "Interested"?

Pradyumna: And then it goes on at end of tape, and the, and the sentence got left off. It said in the . . . it said in the book in the trans . . . in the original Bengali, it says that they . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Pradyumna: . . . they did not make . . . they made obeisances to Nārāyaṇa, but then they, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is Nārāyaṇa, that's all right . . . (indistinct)

Pradyumna: So you say: "They did not take very much care for this form, but they were . . . showed respect, but they were not very much intimately . . ."?

Prabhupāda: Interested.

Pradyumna: Ah, "not very much interested." And just one more thing. It says that, er . . . you say, so far it talks about Lord Caitanya was experiencing these four forms of bhāva, vicāri bhāva, and then, "So far as Lord Nītyānanda is concerned, He is in ecstasy of parental love, servitude and fraternal attraction. Similarly, Śrī Advaita Prabhu is both, the same, in both the ecstasies of . . . ecstasy of . . . the ecstatic position of fraternity and servitude." And then, uh, and then there was one more thing. It said: "Lord Cai . . . Kṛṣṇa, the same Absolute Truth is playing as Kṛṣṇa, the player of the flute, and dancing with the gopīs, the color of Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṇa.

Sometimes the same Supreme Personality of Godhead is taking birth in a brāhmaṇa family, accepting the renounced order of life, and playing the part of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There appears to be some contradiction, that how is that the same person who as Kṛṣṇa is accepting the ecstasy of the gopīs?" The original says, uh, how should I put it? It says, ei kona virodhera sthala ei yei jini kṛṣṇa tini e gopi hoya te chen.

Prabhupāda: Gopī-bhava. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur (Śrī Sad-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka verse 4).

Pradyumna: "There appears to be some contradiction"? That, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that? Gopī-bhāva, not gopī.

Pradyumna: Oh.

Prabhupāda: The mood of the gopī.

Pradyumna: Oh. "There appears to be some contradiction that, how is it that the same person that, that Kṛṣṇa, the same person Kṛṣṇa, is accepting the ecstasy of the gopīs?"

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Pradyumna: And then it said: "This is of course very difficult for an ordinary person to understand, but we accept the inconceivable energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, everything is possible."

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So, when you have to go?

Śrutakīrti: Oh, I think we'll be leaving at six-thirty.

Prabhupāda: The man has not yet come?

Śrutakīrti: The guest is here. Yes. He's waiting now.

Prabhupāda: So, let him come.

Śrutakīrti: Yeah.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this gentleman is Dr. Christian . . .

Devotee: Hauser?

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, I see. And he's a very good friend of Gauracandra. He's a devotee from Amsterdam. And he's a professional psychiatrist.

Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda's just saying his mantra, Gāyatrī.

Paramahaṁsa: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: So very glad to see you. (break)

Dr. Hauser: You see, when I met George, he was a very, what do you call it, person that hadn't found anything very specific in life. He floated about very much, and he . . . now when I met him yesterday he was very . . . he seemed very happy and very sure of himself and what he was doing, and that made me very happy. I thought that was something very nice. I liked him very much for that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original status of the living entity. Just like a son is conscious always that, "I am the son of such-and-such person." This consciousness is natural. So living entities, when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . because we are all parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. It cannot be broken. A person may go mad, but when he's cured, he immediately understands that, "I belong to such-and-such family, such-and-such gentleman's son." That is natural. Similarly, in the contact of this material nature, the spiritual spark, living entity, he's in madness. You are a psychiatrist. You know very well. Every man is more or less a madman.

Dr. Hauser: Or he has the germ within himself.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. We say in a Bengali poetry:

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya

māyā-grasta jīvera se dāsa udāya

(Prema Vivarta 1)

Anyone who is infected with this material energy, he is just like a man ghostly haunted. You have any experience of ghostly haunted men? A ghost captures him?

Dr. Hauser: Ghostly haunted?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Possessed.

Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes. But that's very often a symptom of a, of a psychosis, that they feel that they are persecuted by, by foreign powers or by . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Foreign powers, yes. So this is called ghostly haunted. So our material conception of life, this is also ghostly haunted, madness. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Englishman," "I am German," these are all conception of ghostly haunted. Because spirit soul is pure. In the Vedic language it is said, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The spirit soul has no connection with such designations. Just like in dreaming we see so many things. But it has nothing to do with me. So this is night dream. At night, we forget all these things about the day dream: "I am this," "I am that," "I am this family member," "I am his father," "I am his husband," and so on, so on.

At night, when we dream, are in a different situation, and we forget everything. And again, in daytime, we forget everything of the night dream. We come another dream. So this is also dream. That is also dream. I am simply observing. In daytime I am seeing some dream, gross dream, and at nighttime I'm seeing some subtle dream. But seer, I am. Under different condition, I am seeing different things. I think you treats this madness. He's sees things in different way, in different positions.

Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So everyone is mad. Anyone who is in material contact, he is mad. So we are trying to take him out of this dreaming condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Hauser: But does he stop dreaming? I mean, substantially, does he stop, stop . . . does one stop dreaming?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Stop means . . . because dreaming means that is not my actual occupation. Dreaming means that. I am separate from the dreaming condition. So if one stops this dreaming condition, then he's cured.

Dr. Hauser: But the dreaming of the night also has another function, according to my . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Dreaming at night, dreaming at day. The same thing. The pattern is different. Pattern is different. If you think that you are Englishman, you are Swedish, or if you are Hindu, you are Muslim, that is also dreaming. You are none of this, as much as you are none of those dreaming things at night. But due to our madness, sometimes we take, "This is fact," sometimes we take, "That is fact." But none of them are facts. Under different condition, we accept them as facts. But none of them are facts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170): when one becomes freed from all designations. Upādhi.

Upādhi means designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Completely free from all designation. Just like in dream I think I have become now king. I am the proprietor of a factory. But none of them. It is only dream. Similarly, in day dream I am thinking I am the father of this family, I am the mother of this family, I am this, I am that. That is all dreaming. So one has to become free from this dreaming condition. That is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam, liberated from all kinds of false designation. Designation. Designation means false . . .

Dr. Hauser: But some of these false, false designations also are the machinery of a society.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also false.

Dr. Hauser: Although they're false, but they, they sort of drive the society on.

Haṁsadūta: Although, although these designations are false, they are driving on a whole society.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: The whole society's driving on so many . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore we call it is illusion, māyā. Just like I showed you.

Haṁsadūta: Yes, the reflection.

Prabhupāda: Reflection. I, in morning walk, the sun was reflected in a glass, exactly it is brilliant as sun. So I showed him: "This is called māyā, illusion. There is no sun, but it appears like sun. Exactly. And it is illuminating also." Reflection of the moon. So one who is less intelligent, he'll see: "Oh, here is a sun, another sun." So he's a madman. One who sees the sun reflection in the glass as sun, he's illusioned. He's mad. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is also psychiatrics movement.

Dr. Hauser: Is that a . . .?

Haṁsadūta: Psychiatric.

Paramahaṁsa: Psychiatric movement.

Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes, yes. In a way . . . I . . . yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. We are taking away a person from the illusionary stage to the real stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Hauser: But it also seems to me that you have, by gaining this consciousness, you can skip a lot of hard work that it takes in ordinary analysis or in a group therapy, for example . . .

Prabhupāda: No hard work.

Dr. Hauser: You have to work a lot with yourself to gain . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Hauser: . . . insight.

Prabhupāda: It is very easy, very easy. Just like we recommend this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Anyone can chant. Even child can chant.

Haṁsadūta: His point is that we . . . our processes skips all this work that they do in an ordinary psychiatric ward or . . .

Dr. Hauser: No. Yes. Or in specific processes which are directed towards insight, the same kind of insight that I imagine you are striving for.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We ask them to refrain from four prohibitive principles: no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Refrain from these prohibitions, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And he becomes sane, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Very easy.

Dr. Hauser: Yeah, it sounds easy. I hope it works.

Prabhupāda: You see all the examples. Well, the same . . . I have not given them any bribe or anything . . .

Dr. Hauser: No, no, no. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: . . . that they'll talk in my favor. But talk with them.

Dr. Hauser: Yes, I've talked to them, and they . . . that's why I'm here, because I'm not, I'm . . .

Prabhupāda: But the process is very simple.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And we don't charge anything. You charge, of course, some . . .

Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) But we don't charge anything. Free. I began this treatment in New York, and it is coming effective.

Haṁsadūta: All over the world.

Prabhupāda: So I think you should adopt this means. A simple method. Don't charge anything. Simply ask him to do this, he'll be cured.

(pause)

Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cured. Mala means dirty things, and nirmala means just opposite—no dirty things. Nirmalam. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are freed from all dirty things, then it can be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Hauser: One . . . one very normal problem that I meet very often in patients is the security to feel that one can believe in something, a security of . . . always there is . . . very often there is an ambivalence: "Should I believe? Should I not believe? I have a, a . . ." Swaying to and fro.

Prabhupāda: No. Believe . . . there is no question of believe. Suppose you are hungry. I give you some food. I say: "You are hungry. Take this food." So when you take this food, you'll believe that, "Yes, my hunger is now satisfied. I'm getting strength." That is belief. So if you are hungry, and if I give you some food, if you don't eat, then how you can believe that your hunger is now satisfied? You must eat. So we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So why not chant? Where is the loss? If there is any gain, let me take it. That is belief. If I say: "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so you have got tongue, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you chant, you'll believe me, because the result will be there. There is no difficulty.

But if you say: "No, I shall not chant," then, then you suffer. What can be done? Anyone can chant. The child chants. If we say: "I don't believe in it. I cannot chant it," so many words. And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. (laughter) You take so much trouble. "I cannot chant. I don't believe in it." And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. So it is whose fault? I say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," if you say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa," immediately, the belief begins. And if you say: "No, no, I cannot chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. I don't believe in it," what can be done? That, that will be taken as misfortune. He's being requested to chant two words. Instead of two words, he'll repeat twenty words. But due to his misfortune, he'll not chant these two words. That is a misfortune.

Dr. Hauser: Yes. But isn't there something else beyond just the chanting? I mean is it . . .?

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. Then there are many things. Ocean. Ānandāmbudhi. Ānandāmbudhi means ocean of blissfulness. So come to the shore, touch the water, first of all, Pacific Ocean. Then gradually you understand. If you remain aloof, "No, I shall not touch," then how you can understand what is Pacific Ocean?

Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see that.

Prabhupāda: Ambudhi. Ambudhi means ocean.

Dr. Hauser: Means . . .?

Prabhupāda: Ocean.

Devotee: Ocean.

Dr. Hauser: Ocean.

Prabhupāda: Ānandāmbudhi. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam.

ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ

śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ . . .

ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ . . . pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaṁ

. . . paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa . . .

sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam

(CC Antya 20.12)

If you chant, then, behind the chanting there are so many things. First thing is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleansing the heart. All disease are due to unclean heart. Disease means uncleanness. Is it not?

Dr. Hauser: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our material disease means unclean heart. So we have to cleanse the heart. And this is the process: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam.

(pause)

You are Swedish?

Dr. Hauser: Yes, I'm Swede. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But you can speak English very nicely.

Dr. Hauser: I lived in South America for about five years.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Johannesburg. What is called? South America. Oh, South Africa.

Śrutakīrti: South America.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, Johannesburg is South Africa. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You lived in South America?

Dr. Hauser: In Brazil, yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Brazil.

Dr. Hauser: And I went to an English school there.

Prabhupāda: We have got our temple in Mexico.

Devotee: And in Caracas.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śrutakīrti: Caracas also.

Prabhupāda: Caracas.

Paramahaṁsa: And Trinidad.

Prabhupāda: Trinidad.

Dr. Hauser: When did this movement start in the Western hemisphere?

Haṁsadūta: 1966, in New York City. The teachings are standard. The teachings of this movement are standard, coming down from the original source, Kṛṣṇa, the original speaker. So it is very scientific. It's not manufactured. Today's science . . . just like psychoanalysis, so many things, they are created recently. And so there are so many experiments and theories changing every day. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is different, in that it is the standard science for understanding the self. It's been practiced for hundreds, thousands, thousands years.

And it has been proved successful by the ācāryas, or the saintly teachers. So the same thing which was practiced many, many hundreds and thousands of years ago is being practiced today, and the same result is being achieved. This is the difference between Kṛṣṇa consciousness and . . . Kṛṣṇa conscious science, spiritual science, and material science. The spiritual science requires no speculation or experimentation. But one has to accept it from the right . . . the authorized source.

Dr. Hauser: Yes. And it was that point I was taking up here, that for some people, accepting things . . .

Haṁsadūta: Everyone has to accept some . . . somebody. They either accept you or their mother, their father, somebody. At every moment, some, someone has to be accepted as authority for something. So what is the best authority? This should be the question. If I have to accept some authority, either here or there, then which is the best authority? This should be the point. Are you the best authority, or this man or this man or this man . . .? Or who should be the best authority? The best authority is that authority which is perfect. That is God.

God is perfect. So this is our, our . . . this is the foundation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that God, He is perfect. Whatever He gives as instruction, that should be accepted. But if we don't agree to that, then we have to take instruction from someone else. And that is bound to be imperfect. Isn't it? Because we are working with imperfect senses—seeing, hearing. So whatever our conclusions may be, they're going to imperfect.

Prabhupāda: Because it has began from imperfect. Therefore conclusion must be imperfect.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But if we begin from the perfect, the conclusion will be perfect.

(aside) What are the four defects, explain.

Haṁsadūta: Uh, four de . . . every conditioned soul, you or I, anyone born in this material world, he's defective by four things. He has got imperfect senses. Just like you don't see what's happening beyond the wall. So this is imperfection of the senses. There are so many examples. The next thing is you're subjected to be illusioned. You may accept a thing for real which is not real. Just like we accept the body as self, but we are not the body. The body is a lump of matter. We are simply witnessing the changes of the body, but we are not the . . . so this is illusion. Then . . .

Prabhupāda: Mistakes.

Haṁsadūta: He's subjected to make mistakes. He'll make a mistake. Everybody knows. "To err is human," right? And he . . .

Prabhupāda: Cheating.

Haṁsadūta: Has a propensity for cheating. Propensity for cheating means that although he's imperfect senses, subject to make mistake and he's illusioned, he will write books giving . . .

Prabhupāda: Instructions.

Haṁsadūta: Instructions. Because . . . but he's not qualified. So he's cheating.

Dr. Hauser: He's cheating.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Dr. Hauser: He's also cheating himself.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. Cheating himself and . . .

Prabhupāda: Cheating others.

Haṁsadūta: . . . cheating others.

Prabhupāda: But that is going on. Recently it happened in Los Angeles, one big professor came to lecture there, and he has got Nobel Prize. I forgot his name. He has written one book, Chemical Evolution. So he was speaking on that Chemical Evolution, and his theory is life begins from four chemicals. So he gave lectures. After that, there is one student, he's also doctor in chemistry; he's my disciple.

So he asked that professor that, "If I give you the chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He replied: "That I cannot say." He says that life begins from these four chemicals, and he lectured hours. And when he was asked, "Suppose I give you these four chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He answered, "That I cannot say." Just see. Is it not cheating? He's, he's saying that life is produced from these chemicals.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And when he's offered these chemicals, he's not certain whether he'll be able to produce life. Is it not cheating?

Dr. Hauser: Yes, he's jumping to conclusions, one can say.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Hauser: He's jumping to conclusions.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, he's not certain about producing life from those chemicals. But still he's lecturing. Is it not cheating?

Dr. Hauser: Not cheating, no . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. Because he cannot produce life. Actually, he cannot, but he's lecturing on this basis.

Dr. Hauser: But he has produced four stages of life.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Hauser: Not real life, but the proteins that life is made of . . .

Prabhupāda: But we are concerned with the real life. We are consider . . . concerned with the real life. If you can produce one real life, a small ant—not human being—then I shall think that you are successful in your program. But that you cannot do. Why do you talk nonsense? Therefore you are cheating. Why should he say: "That I cannot say," if he's not confident? That means cheating. Everyone is doing that. He's not confident about his theory, and he's speaking long, long speech. And people are fools. They are hearing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading many blind man, what is the benefit? The leader has no eyes, and he's leading many blind men. What is the use?

Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes.

Prabhupāda: And these so-called scientists will reply, "Yes, we are trying. In future." In future, everyone can expect future. But the hearsay is that "Trust no future, however pleasant." Why future? In past we could not do. At present we cannot not do. What is the guarantee that in future we'll be able to do? There is no history that anyone has produced life from chemicals. What do your . . . what do you think, that life is a product of chemicals, do you mean to say?

Dr. Hauser: That is what I've been taught. Yes. About the evolution of the earth, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore, if . . .

Dr. Hauser: . . . all the different stages of life.

Prabhupāda: Do you think that's a fact . . .

Dr. Hauser: It's not a fact. I don't know whether it's a fact. I . . . but that's . . .

Prabhupāda: Then that means illusioned. You are not confident, but you accept that theory. This is illusion.

Haṁsadūta: Disturbing.

Dr. Hauser: But . . . yes. But . . .

Prabhupāda: But one should apply your reason, from practical life, whether life is produced from matter or matter is produced from life. Our proposition is: matter is produced from life, not life is produced from matter. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates. Now that Absolute Truth, whether He's life or dead stone? So that is discussed: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1).

That Absolute Truth must be cognizant. So as soon as we say cognizant, then we say life. Abhijñaḥ. That, that means if I say, "I have produced all these things that is within the room," then means I must have brain. I must be experienced how to do it. How I can be dead, matter? Has the matter has got such things? The origin of creation must be a living being.

Dr. Hauser: But somewhere . . . if I can . . . but in this, there is also the creation of life, when . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is that evidence, creation of life from matter? Is there any evidence in the history?

Dr. Hauser: No, but as we know, the evolution of life has gone through different stages of . . . how do you . . .?

Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory. Do you mean to say Darwin's theory?

Dr. Hauser: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Darwin was a number-one nonsense. (laughter) Yes. Rascal. He has confused the whole world.

Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Why . . .?

Prabhupāda: Evolution of matter. Matter cannot evolve. That is not possible.

Dr. Hauser: But evolution of life . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that life? That is different from matter. That is a different energy. That I am speaking. Matter is . . . life is the origin of matter. The evolution is not of the matter, but of the life. That Darwin does not know. Therefore I say nonsense. He does not know that.

Dr. Hauser: Yes. But I feel in the . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like this is an apartment. So from this apartment, you go to another apartment. So it does not mean that this apartment has evolved to that apartment. I, the person, I create that apartment, or I prefer that apartment. Not that this apartment has evolved into that apartment.

Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Darwin's nonsense is there. He is changing the apartment. Apartment is becoming a different apartment. That is not a fact. Just try to understand. This room cannot develop into another room. But I, the resident of this room, I can go from this apartment to another apartment. Or I can create another apartment. This is evolution.

Dr. Hauser: And I can create a bigger apartment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, bigger, smaller, as I like. Not necessarily bigger. That is also another nonsense.

Dr. Hauser: And my intelligence might grow also.

Prabhupāda: Intelligence, may be. But there must be means. You may be very intelligent, but if you have no means to erect another nice apartment, how it will?

Dr. Hauser: Trial and error.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Hauser: Trial and error.

Prabhupāda: Just like you have got the desire to purchase another dress, garment, nicer, but if you have no money, then how you can purchase? You have to purchase something inferior. So these different species of life is the evolution of the living soul according to his karma. That is Vedic instruction. karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So I am a living entity. If I want to go to better condition of life, then I'll have to pay for it. Better condition is there already. Not this inferior condition changes into that better condition. That is another thing.

Just like the condition in moon planet is different from the condition of this earthly planet. That is already there. You have to transfer yourself from this planet to that planet. So that point is missing in Darwin's theory. He says that the body is evolving. That is nonsense. The body is evolving, then why the monkey body is not producing a human body at the present moment? Where is the evidence? The monkeys are already there. Where is the evidence in the zoo that a monkey has produced a human being? Do you think it is all right?

Dr. Hauser: Yes. That, that life might have taken different forms, that I'm quite sure of. And that the human being might not have existed for about a hundred thousand years ago.

Prabhupāda: No. Human beings exist eternal. He's existing. But he accepting, he's accepting different situation.

Paramahaṁsa: There's proof of this in that recently there was a discovery in South America—I think it was in Kenya—where they discovered a skeletal remains that were over hundreds of thousands of years old that was pre-, what is it? Mag . . . what is it?

Haṁsadūta: Pre-magnon.

Paramahaṁsa: Pre-magnon, and it was the same human body as now, as we have now. They have discovered. And with this discovery, they say, completely all of Darwin's theories have been destroyed. This is a fact. Immediately, see. He overlooked. He says: "I do not see any proof that human beings lived millions of years ago. Therefore I think apes were existing." But what proof does he have? And now they have discovered bones, and they have proven by tests that Pre-magnon era there was the same human body. It's a fact. And completely his, all his theories have been destroyed. Because he again, he was working with his illusory senses.

Dr. Hauser: Hmm. But there are the dinosaurs, for example. The dinosaurs, yes, which died and disappeared from the earth. And that is also a kind of evolution that has taken place.

Haṁsadūta: He says there are these prehistoric animals like dinosaurs, these big, gigantic animals, they are no longer existing now, but they existed at one time. So there, there was some evolution there.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: But the point is Vedic, Vedic conclusion is that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, but, apart from Vedic conclusion, this example, that practically, when I go from this apartment to another apartment, so this apartment does not become another apartment. I go from this apartment to another apartment. He's missing that "I." Or "you." That is his nonsense.

Dr. Hauser: He's only talking about apartments.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his rascaldom.

Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean.

Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not . . . he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body, is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body.

Dr. Hauser: But some of this cheating, as you call it, must have . . . have still been a great use to mankind, because it has not been proven at the time, when this theory has been evoked by some scientist, it has not been proven that he's right, but he works according to this principle that he has got, and then later . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in Bhāgavatam that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not?

Dr. Hauser: But I don't really understand.

Prabhupāda: In the jungle, in the forest . . .

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . the lion is considered to be the king of animals. So lion is also animal, only big animal. That's all.

Dr. Hauser: So you mean the scientist is a big lion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A big rascal. (laughter) That's it. A big rascal. A big rascal is eulogized by small rascals. That's all.

Dr. Hauser: Seducing a small rascal.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Hauser: Seducing a small rascal.

Prabhupāda: Another small rascal. This is the position. Everything is going on like that. Not only in science, philosophy, religion, sociology, politics. The, a big rascal and small rascal. That's all.

Dr. Hauser: But you must evoke quite a lot of feelings when you say, for example, that Einstein was a very big rascal.

Prabhupāda: No. He believed in God. Yes. He believed in God. He was not a rascal. A sane man.

Paramahaṁsa: Carl Jung also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He believed in God.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He tried to find out the brain of God. So he's not a rascal. He's sane man. Those who are defying God, they're rascal, demons. Einstein believed in God. Yes. There are many scientists, they believe in God. Harāv abhaktasya kuto . . . (SB 5.18.12). Unless one is God conscious, he's a rascal. Immediately, take it. We take it like that. As soon as you say godless, atheist, oh, a rascal. That's all. It may be the understanding of God is not so perfect. But he thinks there is God. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. And the demons will never accept God. Just like in Russia. All set of rascals. They do not believe in God.

Dr. Hauser: But the interest . . . the religious interest in Russia is, is greater than in any other country in Europe. But not the . . . the leaders are not . . .

Prabhupāda: Russia, the leaders . . . not only in Russia; everywhere. The leaders, the rascal leaders spoiling the whole world situation. In India also. In India, by nature, they are aloof from these four principles of sinful life. Eighty percent of the population, by nature. But government, at the present moment, the leaders, they're inducing them to eat meat, to drink. And gambling also, introducing. Gambling. Government is issuing that gambling cards. Because government means some rascal just like Nixon has gone to the power. Now he's proved he's a rascal. So everywhere, the government leaders means all rascals.

Dr. Hauser: Although Nixon says, in every television speech, that he is a God believer.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Hauser: Nixon says, at least, that he is a God believer.

Prabhupāda: That is his politics.

Dr. Hauser: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Maybe God believer, but . . .

Dr. Hauser: Are you leaving for . . .

Paramahaṁsa: Six-ten. We leave in ten, fifteen minutes. Would you care to go?

Dr. Hauser: No, I have to go back to my, to this emergency ward. One of my colleagues was . . . were ill today, and I had to replace him.

Paramahaṁsa: I see. As far as Nixon is concerned, we can see from his activities that he doesn't . . . he may say he's a believer in God, but his actions prove contrary. You see, that's . . . you see, you can judge a person by his activities. With someone like Śrīla Prabhupāda, you can judge that actually he is the only person I have ever met within my short span who is actually . . . (break)

Dr. Hauser: . . . I was also thinking that it was a little bit hard for me to get into the language, or the Indian words. And I felt that one has to be rather intellectually sharp to be able to go into these matters.

Prabhupāda: What is that difficult word?

Dr. Hauser: Intellectually . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that difficult word? You are feeling difficult.

Haṁsadūta: The Indian words means Sanskrit words.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit word we have given English equivalents. So what is the difficulty?

Dr. Hauser: It's not that, it's not that . . . I can understand them, but . . . and I can get the translations and . . . but then . . .

Prabhupāda: We have given the equivalent of each word.

Dr. Hauser: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: And then translation and then purport.

Dr. Hauser: No, but what I mean to say is that this is knowledge that can be spread in this way, it must be spread to people who are rather accustomed to reading, to getting . . .

Prabhupāda: No. If he reads he will be accustomed. Reading will make him accustomed.

Dr. Hauser: Well the reading customs of, for example, Sweden are very, you know, very limited to newspapers and television, and it will take them . . .

Prabhupāda: That we have explained.

Dr. Hauser: Yeah?

Prabhupāda: We have explained.

(aside) Find out this verse, tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ. Yes, first of all you see the index?

Śrutakīrti: What, this?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yellow book, you know.

Śrutakīrti: First Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ.

Śrutakīrti: Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ? 236.

tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo

yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api

nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat

śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ

(SB 1.5.11)

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

Prabhupāda: You follow?

Dr. Hauser: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Read it again.

Śrutakīrti: "On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of the world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

Dr. Hauser: Um-huh. Yes.

Prabhupāda: The newspaper is glorification of this mundane world. You have to transfer your consciousness to understand the glorification of the Supreme. This is transcendental literature. So people have got the tendency to read, but they're glorifying this rascal, mundane rascals. So that attitude should be transferred to understand the glorification of the Supreme Lord. That will be revolution. That we are presenting.

We are presenting a literature exactly like the newspaper. They are glorifying some Nixon and Dixon. (laughter) We are glorifying Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. That is the difference. If Nixon has glorification, how much glorification is there in reserve of the Supreme Lord?

Dr. Hauser: But these Nixons and Dixons and Hitlers and . . . they have a rather . . .

Prabhupāda: That is illusion. We are attached to them.

Dr. Hauser: Yes, we are attached to them also because they have power over us. They can persecute us, and they can . . . so it's very . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the greater power is Kṛṣṇa. If you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a five-years-old boy. He took shelter of Kṛṣṇa, and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise this boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pape . . . (BG 18.66): "I give you protection." So people have no faith in what is God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Kṛṣṇa, what this rascal, Hitler, can do?

But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is the difference, even in the birds kingdom. That is explained in the previous verse. Na tad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo, pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham (SB 1.5.10). Read that, previous to this verse.

Śrutakīrti:

na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo

jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit

tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā

na yatra haṁsā niramanty uśik-kṣayāḥ

(SB 1.5.10)

Prabhupāda: Niramanty uśik-kṣayāḥ. Translation.

Śrutakīrti: "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there."

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of taste. Just see birds, two kinds of birds, crows and the swans, different taste. Therefore we are trying to create taste for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then these crows' place, newspaper, will not . . . we don't read newspaper. We don't touch it unless there is some news of ours. (laughs) We don't touch it. What is the use of wasting time?

They read so big, big bundle of newspaper. But we don't touch them even. Oh, we have got sufficient literature here. Why should we waste our time in the crows' manifestation? The same politics, same Nixon, same Dixon, same Hitler. It is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. Things which have already been chewed and thrown away, another person is coming, "Let me see if there is any juice." It is already chewed. What juice you'll find there? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, again and again, same politics, same new leader, same he's a rascal.

Just like Nixon advertises in news, "America now requires Nixon." So America accepted him, and now America doesn't want him. Again another Nixon will come. This is going on, punaḥ punaḥ, again and again, chewing the chewed. The people are not disgusted that, "We have tasted all these rascals. Why another Nixon?"

Dr. Hauser: There doesn't seem to be any accumulation of knowledge.

Prabhupāda: They have no brain. The same thing, the crows. So therefore they have to be enlightened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they will be able to find out some big leader, nice leader for them. There are so many things. You are educated. You should try to understand our philosophy. There are so many things to be learned from our . . . we're not sentimentally dancers only. We have got logic, philosophy, science, everything.

Otherwise, how we are writing so many books? Just see, each and (every) word, how they are nicely, these two verses we have read. How full of meaning. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo. Harer . . . pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham (SB 1.5.10). Each word has volumes of meanings. There are 18,000 verses in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and each word you'll find enlivening. Each word. It is such a nice literature. One verse contains at least sixteen words. So 18,000 multiplied by sixteen, how much?

Dr. Hauser: 18,000 . . .

Prabhupāda: 18,000 verses multiplied by sixteen. How many words?

Dr. Hauser: Hmm. 280,000. Yes.

Prabhupāda: 280,000 words, and each word you'll find a new light. That is Bhāgavata. Each word you'll find.

Dr. Hauser: Are these going to be translated into Swedish too?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you do. (laughter) We have got the . . .

Śrutakīrti: You can do that.

Prabhupāda: Some Sanskrit scholar in Swedish language must come forward. Then it can be done. But he must be a good scholar, because each word is meaningful. Yes. Just like beginning of the Bhāgavata, janmādi asya (SB 1.1.1). Janmādi. Now this one word has volumes of meaning. Janmādi means beginning from janma. So beginning from janma, birth, how many things are there? Generally, birth, janmastiti-lata, birth, then you stay for some time and then you become vanquished. This body. Janmādi asya. Asya, "of this material world." Janma, creation, then situation, then annihilation. Now how many volumes of books you can write on these three words? How this universe was created, how it is being maintained and how it will be annihilated—these three words. How many books you can write?

Dr. Hauser: Infinity.

Prabhupāda: Such is Bhāgavata verse, janmādy asya, asya janmādi. And this is Bhāgavata. Concise word, but volumes of meanings. Volumes. Each word is like that. Vidyā bhāgavatāvali. Therefore one's learning is complete when he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Otherwise he remains imperfect, in spite of all learning. Janmādy asya yataḥ: from where? Now the creation of this cosmic world, from where? But you do not know from where. This is explained in Bhāgavatam. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. That is actually truth. In this way simply if you analyze one verse, you'll find each word is full of volumes of meaning. Yes. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt. Now the creation, anvayāt, directly and indirectly, itarataś cārtheṣu, in the matter of understanding, abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means completely cognizant. That is the Absolute Truth. He knows everything—how this universe is created, how it is maintained, how it annihilated, directly and indirectly.

Just like I always, regular, everyday thing, when I am massaged by my student, I see so many veins, so I think that I claim, "This is my leg." But I do not know what are these veins. Directly I know this is my leg, but indirectly I do not know how this leg is working with these veins and nerves and muscles. I do not know. But so far God is concerned, He has created. He knows every veins of everything. That is called abhijñaḥ. In this way you analyze every word, you'll find volumes of meaning. The next question will be, "Where He got this experience? You say He's abhijñaḥ, He knows everything. To get experience one must have teacher." But the next word is svarāṭ: He's experienced and self-sufficiency, svarāṭ, independent. He hasn't got to go anywhere for experiencing. In this way each word is full of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ, tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). We have very shortly described this one verse. I think five, six pages.

(aside) You have got that verse? You show him.

Śrutakīrti: Yes. Right here. (showing book to the psychiatrist) Here's the translation, the verse.

Prabhupāda: That is very short description.

Śrutakīrti: Short. (laughs) Similarly for the next verse also.

Prabhupāda: So it is so meaningful. All learned scholars of the world must read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam if they want actually good for themselves and good for the world.

Haṁsadūta: So the program actually . . .

Śrutakīrti: If we can leave at seven o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you say, I leave.

Śyāmasundara: It's seven o'clock now.

Dr. Hauser: It's seven now.

Śyāmasundara: I have five minutes to.

Haṁsadūta: Why don't you come with us?

Dr. Hauser: I can't. I'm very sorry, but I would have very much liked to.

Haṁsadūta: Oh, I see.

Śrutakīrti: Tomorrow morning Śrīla Prabhupāda's leaving at 8:30. If you'd like to come . . . he has a morning walk at six o'clock if you'd like to come for that.

Prabhupāda: That is not so important. Nobody can rise at six o'clock.

Dr. Hauser: Well, I can sometimes. It has been a pleasure meeting you.

Prabhupāda: All right, thank you very much for your coming also.

Dr. Hauser: Thank you.

Paramahaṁsa: Does he speak on any special topic tonight? Is he speaking on any special topic tonight?

Śyāmasundara: No, I don't think he's . . . (indistinct) . . . (end)