720808 - Conversation - London

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720808R1-LONDON - August 08, 1972 - 54:44 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. You will get so many ideas of preaching about Caitanya.

(break) . . . analysis of the social structure of human society. People do not know it, how to make this social structure. There must be brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Simply one class, śūdra class, laborer class, will not make perfect.

Guest: You can see it yourself. It's perfectly true.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: This country, at the moment my lord . . . with everyone trying to be equal, it just doesn't work.

Prabhupāda: No. How you can make it work? You require a head and tail also. We cannot make head and tail equal.

Guest: No.

Prabhupāda: Simply head will not do, simply tail will not do. We require head and tail both. Then it will be beautiful. So it is actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is solution of all problems. Thinking, thoughtful men should come forward, study it, and try to introduce it in the human society. Otherwise, this piling of bricks and stones will not help.

Guest: There is so much wickedness in the world, my lord, I fear that if you try to force anything good, it will be rejected every time.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering.

(pause) How long I spoke?

Śyāmasundara: Nearly one hour. About fifty minutes.

Guest: Fantastic.

Prabhupāda: So practically there was no question that upstart boy only (laughing). Made some question that had no value.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: And the reply was appropriate.

Śyāmasundara: Very. He said that he was hearing blasphemy and this and that, so he got what he deserved.

Prabhupāda: Blasphemy?

Śyāmasundara: He said, yes, he said he had . . . that he thought you were blaspheming God.

Prabhupāda: Blasphemy, why?

Śyāmasundara: Who knows? According to the Christian point of view, he said.

Guest: I wonder what sort of Christian he was.

Devotee (1): No Christian.

Guest: No, this is it. That is the whole point, isn't it.

Devotee (1): Christian by name, and demon by activities.

Guest: Yeah. There's a . . . there's two sects in London which fascinate me. I mean, one is called The Pillar of Fire Society, and nobody's ever been able to find out what they mean. And the other is the Limited . . .

The Plymouth Brethren, and they're so . . . the Inner Circle of The Plymouth Brethren. You have to be born into this. This seems to be so stupid. They're so tight, so tight-reined on, on, on their thinking that, that man could have come from that type of thing.

Devotee (1): He didn't seem actually very intelligent. Just, just someone who likes to argue. Revatīnandana Swami hit him with such an answer, he wasn't able to say anything. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Every district has got a town hall, in London.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, every small suburb or borough of London, they have a town hall. Actually, we could go from one town hall to the next.

Prabhupāda: Here is one town hall.

Śyāmasundara: Holborne Town Hall. There's St. Pancras Town Hall, Camden Town Hall.

Devotee (2): All big like that?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. All nice.

Guest: But quite recently most of the, of the boroughs, for instance, take Kensington . . .

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Guest: . . . Kensington and Chelsea became one, so that you now have four town halls, in effect, within Kensington.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Guest: And the same is with Marylebone. We've got Marylebone, Paddington, Westminster, all part of the Westminster City Council. This was the last Labour government we had.

Prabhupāda: This is Camden Town?

Śyāmasundara: This is Camden Town. We're right on the border. There is Holborne just across the street. And West . . . no, Westminster over there across the street.

Guest: I had to take Dhanañjaya to see that garden I pointed out to you all, on top of the roof. It's a beautiful garden, on the roof.

Śyāmasundara: Across the road from the . . .

Guest: Yes, from the, across the road from the Town Hall.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Guest: With waterfalls, there's a stream, bridge over it, ducks, dolls . . .

Prabhupāda: On the roof?

Guest: On the roof my Lord.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles)

Guest: Dhanañjaya refused to believe it, and so I had to take him up there to see if he approved of it for you to have a look at it.

Prabhupāda: It is not sold?

Guest: Dhanañjaya saw it.

Śyāmasundara: And now it's for sale . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: . . . isn't it?

Guest: Yes, it is. Yes, but it's far too much.

Prabhupāda: So why not go and see?

Śyāmasundara: Thirty million pounds. (laughter)

Devotee (2): It's a church?

Guest: No, no. It's a, opposite Derry & Toms department store. Very big one.

Śyāmasundara: A little bit out of our range. (pause)

Guest: What do you think of the idea of a central hall, my lord, ten million?

Prabhupāda: Well, my admission is we must have the best house.

Guest: Well, that's the best one going . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: . . . in London at the moment.

Prabhupāda: But it is up to the members of the London temple to secure the money.

Śyāmasundara: That one is ten million pounds.

Prabhupāda: Why ten million? Twenty million. Any. But we have to work for it. Too much ambition is not good.

Guest: Oh no.

Prabhupāda: But must be a very nice temple. You try; Kṛṣṇa will help. We have no power. But it is now necessary that we must change to a better place. That it is too much crowded, suffocating.

Guest: Sometimes I think the only place you can get to stand downstairs is . . . is on people's heads. It's packed to capacity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we will require immediately. (knock at door) Yes. (female voice in background) Come in.

Śyāmasundara: One thing is, I heard this place in Hammersmith will also be occupied for some time.

Guest: Well, no. It, it will depend on a purchase.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Guest: And then, uh, they'll have to move out. In the meantime, I don't think they themselves know . . .

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Guest: . . . if they're going to sell it.

Prabhupāda: . . . did you sell some book?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā?

Devotee (2): Many people are looking at the Bhagavad-gītā this evening, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee (2): Many, many. They like the pictures.

Prabhupāda: There is no such Bhagavad-gītā in the English language, or any language.

Devotee (2): I'm already arranging with the Collier-Macmillan that when Bhagavad-gītā comes to England, there will be a big publicity drive . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee (2): . . . for the book, uh, reception of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Are they going to print it here, or print it in the US and bring it on the boat?

Devotee (2): Bring it over on the boat.

Śyāmasundara: How many copies?

Devotee (2): Many, many. Actually, Collier-Macmillan, they will distribute them to the bookshops, and that will be very good for us.

Śyāmasundara: You do have to give them a little push.

Devotee (2): Yes, that's right.

Prabhupāda: We have got our basic principle of Vedic knowledge, so there is no comparison with our edition with any other. Theirs, mental spec . . . how long they will speculate?

(pause) (break)

Devotee (2): You looked very beautiful this evening.

Prabhupāda: I looked?

Devotee (2): Yes. (laughter)

Guest: It's a beautiful setting.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: In there. It was a very nice hall, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: We . . . we should have our Bhāgavata-saptāha in a nice hall like that. Then we could have . . . how much a night?

Devotee (2): This one twenty pounds.

Śyāmasundara: They provided . . . (indistinct) . . . they provided all the sound equipment? (indistinct exchange) That's part of the twenty pounds? Twenty-four pounds extra?

Devotee (2): Four pounds.

Śyāmasundara: Four pounds extra. That hall was twenty pounds for one night, plus four pounds for the sound equipment. They provided everything.

Prabhupāda: Makes a surplus.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Then how the Bhāgavata-saptāha?

Śyāmasundara: Well their ad . . . their advertising was done mainly on the street, Oxford Street. They didn't approach the Hindi . . . Hindu communities directly. Isn't that it?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They handed out leaflets, but mostly to English pedestrians on Oxford Street.

Devotee (2): The next engagement will be mainly for Indians, next week.

Prabhupāda: On the . . .

Devotee (2): Seventeenth.

Prabhupāda: . . . seventeenth.

Guest: That is the Commonwealth Institute.

Prabhupāda: Now go and take rest. (break) . . . this, that a man is dead, soul has gone out.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now after few hours millions of germs are coming out. They were not visible when the body was not dead. Now where they were?

Revatīnandana: They were within the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, in everything there is living entity.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. But . . .

Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time.

Śyāmasundara: What, what he was telling me was that this table itself has a jīva soul, as if the table . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Śyāmasundara: . . . is a person. Oh.

Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking when I said: "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question.

Śyāmasundara: That's what completely threw me off. I thought, oh . . .

Revatīnandana: That, that threw us all.

Śyāmasundara: That means the table is a person, this is a person . . .

Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. That it, it is also proof that every jīva soul is individual, although they are living combinedly. Everything is individual.

Revatīnandana: Well that's . . . that's all right then. Now if the . . .

Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. We . . . he was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, that small shining particles combine together.

Revatīnandana: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Molecules. So everything is the combined spirit particles.

Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us. Everything.

Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when that covered, that is called material.

Śyāmasundara: Each, each jīva is . . .

Prabhupāda: That the sunshine is now covered is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, that is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Revatīnandana: Is that covering . . .

Prabhupāda: That covering also created of the sunshine, by the same energy.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But that by the same energy it is disappeared, uncovered.

Śyāmasundara: How, how is . . .

Prabhupāda: So, the conclusion is, living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material.

Revatīnandana: But this, the, the body itself . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . is sort of a, then is a manifestation of ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: And the . . .

Prabhupāda: When this . . .

Revatīnandana: . . . then when we see this . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . when the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body.

Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then, and then I know that I am not this body.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. The question is . . .

Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance.

Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction between the nature of the soul . . .

Prabhupāda: Then . . .

Revatīnandana: . . . and the nature of the body.

Prabhupāda: . . . that, that distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.

Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which distinguish matter and spirit.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya-bhedābheda-tattva: inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.

Śyāmasundara: When you . . . when you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a small living entity, or is a living entity with a small body, that each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Takes a small body made out of matter.

Prabhupāda: That, that body means ignorant.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Śarīra avidyā-jāl. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all of these smaller cells, I organize them into my big body?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. So try to understand. Covered by something.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: The same example, that the sunshine is there; it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally the sunshine is everything.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Is it clear?

Śyāmasundara: So how do . . . how do, how do I create the matter . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: . . . that is my body? How do I create the . . .

Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are creating. You are creating actually.

Śyāmasundara: By eating and . . .?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair, it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing. I am growing. I am creating. They do not know. That is ignorance.

Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask us . . . then they ask us . . .

Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public.

Revatīnandana: Yeah, I know, but then just like somebody . . .

Prabhupāda: These are very higher understanding.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: For public should be, "This is matter; this is spirit." That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Revatīnandana: That's right. But one, one of the devotees asked me one time why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernail continues to grow.

Prabhupāda: It is nonsense. Never grows.

Revatīnandana: Huh? They display like that. They have observed.

Prabhupāda: It decomposes.

Revatīnandana: But they say the hair continues to come out sometimes from the dead bodies.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . .

Śyāmasundara: You, I think you said once, in answer to that, that sometimes the fan turns a . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . little bit after the plug's pulled.

Revatīnandana: Yeah, it's a mechanism, bodily mechanism is . . . (indistinct) . . . that's what I said. That some mech . . . material mechanism is still functioning, like a machine.

Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe, just like the fan is stopped, but is still moving. Like that.

Revatīnandana: Then . . . so that among the different manifestations of energies, it'd be oneness that they are all Kṛṣṇa's energies, but there is also diversities . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya-bhedābheda.

Revatīnandana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You cannot clearly distinct. Bheda. It is one and different, at the same time.

Revatīnandana: I have been under . . .

Prabhupāda: It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that.

Śyāmasundara: Some, somehow or other we create our own ignorance, even . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything spirit, but at the same time not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4), "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that? Everything is in Kṛṣṇa, so how Kṛṣṇa is not there? He said that.

Revatīnandana: Yeah. You said because you can't see Him there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is matter.

Śyāmasundara: That just . . . just I want to clear this up. Just like this table is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one . . .

Prabhupāda: Atom, millions of atom.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says: "I am within the matter." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there?

Śyāmasundara: Right.

Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as a jīva expansion . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . not as plenary expansion.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion.

Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also, jīva is also plenary expansion.

Revatīnandana: Plenary?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: I thought plenary means full expansion?

Prabhupāda: Not plenary, that, that is also expansion. It is called vibhināṁśa.

Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then . . .

Prabhupāda: Svāṁśa, vibhināṁśa. Viṣṇu-tattva is svāṁśa. And vibhināṁśa, both of them are part and parcel.

Revatīnandana: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: So the svāṁśa is plenary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: And vibhināṁśa is part of plenary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom is as vibhināṁśa.

Prabhupāda: No, both of them there.

Revatīnandana: Both of them?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: In the atom?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone. That, that . . .

Prabhupāda: When, whenever that Kṛṣṇa is there the everything must be there. (laughter)

Haṁsadūta: Then in, in the Brahma-saṁhitā it says that He's present in every atom in His complete fullness.

Prabhupāda: That they . . . this brain will not accommodate.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But as soon as the King is there, you must know the King is with his minister, secretaries, everything. How you can say the King is alone there?

Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya.

Śyāmasundara: But this, this body of a table, there is not, it's not an individual personality, is it?

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: It's not one jīva soul that . . . in charge of this table?

Revatīnandana: The table itself is not a person . . .

Prabhupāda: No, not . . .

Revatīnandana: . . . but within there are many persons.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that, are in there.

Prabhupāda: God is also there.

Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa's there.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Everything is there.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But actually it is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: But we cannot see.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ . . . idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa, but it appears is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya bhedābheda. So unless we accept the thesis and philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different . . . incon . . . for us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable. Acintya. But from theoretical, or by logical conclusion, everything is one, Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Revatīnandana: There's . . . I'd read . . .

Prabhupāda: Another, another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair. I am, I am the hair . . .

Revatīnandana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: . . . but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like.

Revatīnandana: Mmm.

Prabhupāda: This is called acintya bhedābheda, inconceivable.

Revatīnandana: So that . . . there's a related thing, question, also there's . . . just like there is at, at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction then between these . . .

Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear.

Revatīnandana: I, I know, but, but still it, not clear, but clearly there is some distinction. Where the distinction is . . .

Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction.

Revatīnandana: Yes. Simultaneously.

Prabhupāda: Simultaneously.

Revatīnandana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Now, which one we . . . which one accept? Therefore inconceivable.

Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: They're both . . . everything is related, in Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: But there's also, amongst the related things, they are related things because there is also diversity amongst them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. There must be.

Revatīnandana: That's right. Now, that is, in preaching in the movement that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living entities . . .

Prabhupāda: That there is diversity why not.

Revatīnandana: . . . and the brahmajyoti. They are saying . . .

Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul, and brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: There is . . .

Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the point. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire . . .

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . but still, heat is not fire.

Revatīnandana: So that . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away.

Revatīnandana: That's right. So the, the, the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Is comparison a small spiritual spark, that's all. We are spark.

Revatīnandana: Am I . . .

Prabhupāda: So long he does not develop a body . . .

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . that body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: He wants to enjoy.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, so long he is forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.

Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. That he is spirit, spiritual identity, already.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: But as you are developing material body, similarly, you can develop spiritual body.

Revatīnandana: You know you . . . you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the, the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . still fallen. That means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls. You see my question? If, if I go there, I am a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti, I am still fallen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. That follows?

Prabhupāda: Now, that, that is explained in, in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhināṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhināṁśa. You can call it fallen.

Revatīnandana: But we usually . . .

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . be separated?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatīnandana: . . . think of fallen as being forgetful.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also forgetful. That if you are in the brahmajyoti you are forgetful, still.

Revatīnandana: But it, it . . .

Prabhupāda: Because, because that, because you are fallen, it is stated in the śāstra, anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Anādṛta. That they, they, they do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.

Revatīnandana: Yeah.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So did they become separated?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Now when, when he . . .

Haṁsadūta: And that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when, in the spiritual world everything is composed of cintāmaṇi, cin . . . cintāmaṇi . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spiritual.

Haṁsadūta: . . . so, just like here everything is composed of atoms.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: So, so suppose someone develops their spiritual form in the spiritual sky, that form, I mean that cintāmaṇi, they are living entities also? Are they . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: . . . conscious entities or, or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy, with Kṛṣṇa, is that an, an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency, or the . . .

Prabhupāda: That you consider.

Haṁsadūta: Huh?

Prabhupāda: That we imagine.

Haṁsadūta: I, I, I don't . . . that's what I'm asking for. Or is it, or, but like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.

Prabhupāda: In one sense it is like . . . it is like that, that spiritual molecules.

Haṁsadūta: Ohhh.

Prabhupāda: Here also spiritual molecules, but here it is called material, because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa.

Haṁsadūta: Forgetful.

Śyāmasundara: They, they are covered by ignorance.

Revatīnandana: Now the cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhināṁśa expansion . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: But he is remembering.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatīnandana: He is remembering; therefore he is . . .

Prabhupāda: He may not remember.

Revatīnandana: Well, he is with Kṛṣṇa, he loves Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like a, when they, when cowherd boys playing, that they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know.

Revatīnandana: Yeah. But they love Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: The love is there.

Revatīnandana: So we will not say they are then . . .

Prabhupāda: So when the love is there, that is spiritual.

Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That is not fallen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They're not separated in any way.

Revatīnandana: So . . .

Prabhupāda: That, that should be . . . you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.

Revatīnandana: The, the thing that was bothering me, when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti, if it is jīvas, that they, they are all fallen souls, and I thought so many . . .

Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere when Kṛṣṇa is forgotten. That is fallen.

Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was then that just like in the room there's so many particles of light, already inconceivable, and then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable it was making my head spin.

Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Separated. Separated.

Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position.

Prabhupāda: But not as fallen as those who are in this material.

Revatīnandana: That's right, but still if they go there, they'll sometimes . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . come back . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . here again.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, now, they are not pure.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Revatīnandana: That's right.

Prabhupāda: They are not pure.

Devotee: Oh.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhāgavata: aviśuddha-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified.

Revatīnandana: Are they, are they less fallen because they are doing . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: . . . some service?

Prabhupāda: Whether, it is clearly stated . . .

Revatīnandana: By lighting it up?

Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence. Aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated, still con . . .

Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence, yes. So they're realizing . . .

Prabhupāda: That they, they, they think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says no, it is not yet liberated. Aviśuddha-buddhayā. Still there is contamination.

Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. That there they also, to some extent, they are also fallen. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then you see . . .

Prabhupāda: Ananta.

Revatīnandana: . . . most souls . . .

Prabhupāda: You can . . . you cannot, you cannot say how many. Ananta. Saḥ anantāya kalpanā. Ananta means unlimited number. You, you . . . there is no question of counting.

Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny.

Revatīnandana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya.

Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's so great.

Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is, that is perfection. That's all. You, you can not understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Yes. (laughter) He is so . . . (laughing) And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand.

Śyāmasundara: So what to speak of us.

Revatīnandana: But the more we understand, the more we can convince . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatīnandana: . . . others.

Prabhupāda: No. That better you understand this, that you cannot understand.

Haṁsadūta: The more we understand . . .

Prabhupāda: This understanding is better.

Revatīnandana: No, but why I said this is that, that . . .

Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: . . . that, that, don't, don't . . .

Prabhupāda: That I cannot understand. (laughing) This understanding.

Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up, and then just simply . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: . . . love Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: This is real understanding, that Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can. Whatever is my . . . my capacity. And that is perfection.

Revatīnandana: Yes. But still we deal with this philosophy for . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, on the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says we can understand, then, that's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible.

Revatīnandana: But in this life, just like this book, this is for convincing people.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Revatīnandana: This book is for convincing men to understand . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, still, we understand better than them.

Revatīnandana: Yes, that's it.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big, that is understandable even by us, and what to, about these here rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position that, "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him, and what, rascal, you can understand?" (laughter) The attitude should be taken like that.

Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all, and, and we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense people try to understand a thing without . . . by, by inspecting it.

Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: He has no capacity, still he wants and, and when, and when he is caught, that you have no capacity, "No, I am trying, I am trying."

Haṁsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: He won't say that, "I have no capacity."

Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Or "I will understand."

Prabhupāda: "I will understand," that he will say.

Śyāmasundara: "In the future, someday I will."

Prabhupāda: Obstinacy.

Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible, and then when we don't understand . . .

Prabhupāda: As soon as . . .

Revatīnandana: . . . and then when we don't understand, that's . . .

Prabhupāda: As far as we know from sādhu, guru, śāstra.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is our understanding.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Can't extend it any further . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: . . . on our own.

Prabhupāda: Don't try to extend on it.

Revatīnandana: No.

Devotee: Yes. Like that business . . .

Revatīnandana: That was speculation.

Śyāmasundara: . . . about the soul and the table. It just completely changed everything we've learned so far.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru, that is my life, that's all. Let me execute that."

Revatīnandana: That was . . . that was semantics. That was, that was word usage. That's why we got confused. And that's . . . so now I can clear up the confusion. Thank you very much. All glories to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Haṁsadūta: Uhh, I have one more question, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (aside) On the light.

Haṁsadūta: There are in, in our world here, there are material scientists, and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance . . .

Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different.

Haṁsadūta: I know, but I mean there must be, suppose on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things and . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted, in his prayer, that people . . . "Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part I say I have never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So even Brahmā cannot understand, why . . . what we? He said the other rascals may say . . . uh? Where is that Brahmā prayer? In the first part? Find out.

Śyāmasundara: Brahma-samhitā.

Haṁsadūta: No, that's in the, uh, "Process of Creation," isn't it?

Prabhupāda: No, no. In Kṛṣṇa book.

Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa One.

Prabhupāda: Now, where is that?

Śyāmasundara: Right here.

Prabhupāda: This is second part. I see always that volume.

Śyāmasundara: Second part? There, there's . . . Volume Two is there.

Prabhupāda: No. Volume Two, yes.

Śyāmasundara: It's here.

Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. That . . . no, no, it is not in Volume Two.

Revatīnandana: No, it's in Volume One.

Haṁsadūta: In Volume One.

Revatīnandana: Volume One, in . . . at, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Revatīnandana: There was . . . when I went to Paris they had gotten all confused. Some were thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā, is not a pure devotee, because . . .

Prabhupāda: In one sense not, he is not pure devotee.

Revatīnandana: Well, by his behavior sometimes . . .

Prabhupāda: Not that behavior . . . (indistinct) . . . because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire.

Haṁsadūta: But, but is he still, Prabhupāda . . .?

Revatīnandana: Isn't he pure? That, that he said . . .

Haṁsadūta: But at the same time he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, as he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . .

Prabhupāda: But Brahmā, it does not mean Brahmā cannot be pure devotee.

Revatīnandana: Yeah. Does he become a pure devotee?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Otherwise, how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma-samhitā?

Śyāmasundara: Someone's bringing . . .

Revatīnandana: That's what I said.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: Someone is bringing one. A first volume.

Revatīnandana: Also, he's the head of our disciplic succession, and I couldn't figure out, that's why I said: "No, he's a pure devotee. How can he be the head of our disciplic succession, he's not a pure devotee?"

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: Bon Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Śyāmasundara: And Bhavānanda's letter.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: This big one, from Bhavānanda's.

Prabhupāda: Oh, open it. Where is that gone? Where has taken it?

Śyāmasundara: Where? What?

Prabhupāda: That knife.

Śyāmasundara: There it is.

Prabhupāda: Open that Brahmā's prayer.

Śyāmasundara: (opening letter) Bhavānanda special. (laughing)

Revatīnandana: Chitpur . . .

Prabhupāda: (announcing) Calcutta First Annual Holy Ratha-yātrā Mahotsava.

Revatīnandana: Says Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing.

Śyāmasundara: That's not it.

Revatīnandana: That's in north Calcutta, huh?

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Revatīnandana: Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road?

Śyāmasundara: Chitpur, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing.

Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's in north Calcutta.

Devotee: Nine, twelve.

Revatīnandana: Oh, here we go.

Śyāmasundara: At three p.m.

Prabhupāda: Ah-hah, is big?

Śyāmasundara: First five days' program, maṅgala-ārati. (laughs) Six days of prasāda distribution, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam discourse, slideshows, art, drama, saṅkīrtana, harināma kīrtana.

Revatīnandana: What's that show . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Oh, with plan also given.

Revatīnandana: Ohh.

Śyāmasundara: Sandhyā ārati.

Revatīnandana: Oh, they're gonna begin . . .

Śyāmasundara: Plus . . .

Revatīnandana: . . . they're gonna begin . . . oh, it's long. It's a long route. They're gonna go from Mahatma Gandhi Road down Chitpur Road to Park Street . . .

Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting . . .

Revatīnandana: . . . and from Park Street all the way to the temple.

Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting at the temple. Oh, yeah.

Revatīnandana: Starting at the temple?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Oh, I see, at the temple.

Śyāmasundara: Starting at the temple, instead of Mahatma Gandhi.

Revatīnandana: Street, Park Street. Oh, they're going on Chowringhee Road.

Prabhupāda: So they are doing something.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, really. That, that'll stand out all over Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: You can, you can hang this picture somewhere, permanently.

Śyāmasundara: Here in . . . right here in . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, no. People will see.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, downstairs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are in Calcutta also.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, okay, in the hall. We can put it in . . .

Prabhupāda: Now you can paste in a board.

Śyāmasundara: On a board?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, outside.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere, you can take it. But in Calcutta you should also have.

Revatīnandana: And the devotees will love to see this.

Prabhupāda: Ah. What is the letter?

Śyāmasundara: It says: "Please . . . enclosed please find the Ratha-yātrā poster. It would appear that it is going to be very successful, and we are expecting a large crowd at the Rādhā-Govinda temple. The program will run from Wednesday the twelfth to Sunday the sixteenth. Each evening we will have a special . . . " (break)

Haṁsadūta: ". . . hand, and searching for Your calves. And yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma-samhitā, Your body is not material."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Haṁsadūta: He says: "Even though You're standing before me, I can't . . ." so who . . .?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: He says: ". . . even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand You." So people they, they think they understand it, only God is nowhere near. (laughing with Prabhupāda)

Śyāmasundara: "As I said in my Brahma-samhitā." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Now this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand, what we can understand? So without burdening ourself, jñāne prayāsam. To . . . jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. No one . . .

Give up this practice, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva (SB 10.14.3). Just become submissive. Submission means that we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, simply just serve, that's all, and develop your dormant love. That is perfect.

Haṁsadūta: You say . . . is that why Kṛṣṇa also says to Arjuna, He says: "What need is there of all this, uh . . ."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Haṁsadūta: In, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything."

Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva san-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām jīvanti (SB 10.14.3).

Śyāmasundara: I see that they've got a telephone in Māyāpur now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: They, they have a telephone in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Śyāmasundara: Svarupa Ganj 31.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That . . . that is wanted.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs with Prabhupāda) There's actually a telephone there.

Prabhupāda: So many American brains are there, if they do not do like that, then what is the use? Have you seen the letter heading then?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, it has a little on the side, Māyāpur Center.

Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the same, Calcutta.

Śyāmasundara: Mm-hm.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Māyāpur Center. Sridhama Māyāpur, District Nadia, Phone Svarupa Ganj 31.

Śyāmasundara: You can actually telephone them someday. Yeah, if you manage to get through.

Prabhupāda: Construct big, big temples, and keep it alive—by kīrtana, by book distribution, by distribution prasāda. "And now we have got big temple, let us eat prasāda and sleep. (laughing) Then temple, will also sleep. That's all." Now we should also keep it in mind, unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center, because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down, that which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he, he could not manage. There was debts, and he became disgusted. You see?

Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in, in Germany I have . . . I have for instance in Munchen, in Munich, and in . . .

Prabhupāda: There at least must be two, three men. Otherwise don't open.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, there are two or three men, but I visit them regularly. You know I . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You just living . . . keep them alive.

Haṁsadūta: That's right, yeah.

Prabhupāda: Simply because you have opened a center the business is finished, no.

Haṁsadūta: No. I go. We go there . . .

Prabhupāda: You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution, saṅkīr . . . busy. That is alive.

Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, there are so many Indian temples or churches, they think the church is there, everything is finished. No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale.

Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. We . . . we would . . . we would . . . everywhere it's like that. We attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: And then more come and come.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

(break) Come on. So how you were allowed to enter?

Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Last time you had difficulty.

Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was . . .

Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news?

Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there.

Prabhupāda: Your health is all right?

Śivānanda: My health is fine.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities. Yes.

Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudāmā was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (break) (end)