Philosophy Discussion on Karl Marx

MARX.SYA

Karl Marx (1818 - 1883)

(tape audio quality extremely poor)

Prabhupāda: and as soon as they get opportunity to become (indistinct), by taking others' blood. Unless you feel in your heart (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that only the workers are entitled to the surplus value of the product (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: But actually the workers (indistinct) no longer work (indistinct). Just like the (indistinct). He was a worker in the mill. He was working, and as soon as he gets some money he sits down as a proprietor of the mill and after, he takes advantage of working others. Because (indistinct) happened and becomes capitalist. There are many instances. Just like in your country, Ford, he was some (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he got the opportunity to become capitalist. And there are so many in our country also (indistinct) that I was a (indistinct) I was out getting money, I was starving, and now I have become first-class. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. They get credit. I recall one book, in Mathura one Mr. (indistinct), he was begging his brother, he became a very businessman, so he wrote his history, that I was begging now I am sitting (break) like that. That's all. So, the theory(?) that my propensity is there, that as soon as I get the opportunity I suck the blood of others and become fat. So unless he changes mentality, there is no question of changing capitalist or communist or this or that. It is all useless.

Śyāmasundara: So shall we stop for today or...?

Devotee: Yes, continue tomorrow.

Śyāmasundara: We still have a few more of Marx.

Devotee: We can do it tomorrow. Then we'll do Lenin tomorrow. (break) So, today we will continue with Marx.

Prabhupāda: Marx? Not yet finished?

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Śyāmasundara: He says that since capital is unnecessary for production, that the capitalists should be overthrown violently and the workers of the world should unite and overthrow the capitalists.

Prabhupāda: But the difficulty is - that we have already discussed (indistinct), today I am (indistinct), tomorrow I am capitalist. Because my tendency is, as soon as I get some money, I shall become master. That is the tendency. That we have already discussed. Today one man is very poor man, so he is in favor of his brothers who are poor, working, but as soon as he gets a little money, immediately he becomes the capitalist. Then he is imitating the same way as the capitalist.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose there is a social system where everyone gets the same amount, no one gets excess.

Prabhupāda: That is simply theory, that is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: But that's what happens in Russia. The managers, they don't get much more than the workers, so that everyone only can have a certain income. Just like Himavati's relatives, they sent their relatives in Russia some gifts for Christmas. The relatives sold the gifts and used the money to buy wood to add a room to their house, and because of that they were greatly punished, severely punished, by the state. But they should have given that money to others, they should have distributed it equally, that was the state's theory because anything that I use for my own benefit is wrong.

Prabhupāda: So my tendency is to (consider) everything as my own, but by the taking of the state I am forced to avoid(?). So how long will this work? By force how you can change one's mind? It is not possible. Therefore we say these things are only nonsense proposition. It will never happen because anyone who is in this material world, he has the prime tendency that I shall become the Lord. (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. The material world means everyone is seeking after some profit, everyone is seeking after some adoration, and everyone is seeking, I mean to say, some position. This is the material world. So, if everyone, seeks profit, adoration and position, so how you can make equal by force?

Śyāmasundara: The communists have played upon this tendency and so the worker who produces more, he gets glorified by the state. He produces more units at his factory than the others, then he gets a small bonus.

Prabhupāda: Why he should get bonus?

Śyāmasundara: In order to, incentive, incentive bonus.

Prabhupāda: That means that his tendency is to lord it over, and that he is being bribed. He wants some profit, "All right, I give you some bonus. This Russian communist idea is very good provided the citizens do not want any profit but that is not possible. Everyone wants profit. So how by law, by force, you can take it? It is not possible. The same proposition: that in the winter season the bugs cannot get blood, cannot come out due to the serious cold so they become dried up. Their skin practically dries, dries completely. There is no blood. That is (indistinct). But as soon as the bug gets opportunity, in the summer season, he can come out, immediately he bites somebody and sucks all the blood.

Śyāmasundara: So this is an example of the people in Russia who are forced by the state not to take profit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but as soon as there is opportunity, they will take it. Because that is the (indistinct). As soon as he got some (indistinct), because it is mine, and he sold it and he utilized it for the purpose. So this is the psychological fact that everyone is trying to get some profit. By force you can make him not to take profit, but that is not possible. As soon as there is profit (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So Karl Marx made a manifesto called the Communist Manifesto which lists ten points for social reform. Should we read them, (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: The first one is the abolition of property and land and application of all rent from land to public purposes. In other words abolition of private property, all property becomes public. The second point is a heavy income tax, no, progressive income tax, so if you make more, you have to pay more. The abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Prabhupāda: The, this thing is not only in Russia, this is going on in other countries. So, people have been taught not to keep accounts. All these big, big business men they don't keep accounts, so there is no question of income tax. Suppose if I want to purchase from you something. No cash memo, no account. I give you money, cash, I take goods, I sell it, no account, then I cash from my (indistinct). That's all. But provided I have my right books, then these things will be applicable-income tax. Just like in our Indian system, there small broker, he has no book; nothing of the sort. He is purchasing one bag or two bags of rice, he is selling, that's all. He does not keep accounts. So as soon as... The whole tendency is, that I want profit. If the government (indistinct), somehow or other, (indistinct), I will get my profit but I will not show government how much profit I am making. He may propose all these nice things according to his philosophy but he cannot change the mind of the people. Therefore all these proposal will be futile. Simply waste of time, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the mind of people can be changed because the conditions...

Prabhupāda: But not in that way, by force. That is not possible. You cannot change the mind even of a child by force, and what to speak of elderly man, educated man. Is it not so? Mind can be changed by our process: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Otherwise it is not. These things will be made (indistinct) complete, even in the ordinary position. Their utopia - it is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He also wants to abolish all inheritance rights, all rights of inheritance.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense proposal, because everyone's tendency is to give money to his children. That is the law everywhere. I have got some affection for my children. I want to give something to my children. So how you can stop this (indistinct). They are proposing all impractical.

Śyāmasundara: They are practicing this in Russia. There is no inheritance. There is no...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct), we have seen Russia is not happy. Russia is not happy and they are simply waiting for another opportunity, another revolution. (indistinct) this boy (indistinct), he is not happy. Similarly we can study. Just like when there is rice boiling you take one grain of rice and press it in your finger. If it is soft, then you can understand the whole rice is boiled. So we can understand the position of Russia from the sample, that boy. We haven't got to study more. And we could get some idea by talking with that professor that, how much foolish he is. He says that after death everything is finished. And he is passing on as a big professor, Indian department, Indology or something. So, if his knowledge is like that, if the sample of the citizen is like that boy, then what is their position? They may theorize so many things. So far as we are concerned, foreigners, we could not get even food to our satisfaction. There is no (indistinct) vegetables, no fruits, milk was (indistinct), no rice. That Madrasi gentleman, if he would not have contributed some dahl and rice and the..., then practically we would have starved.

Śyāmasundara: The rice from Korea was like BB's, small pellets. We bought some rice.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Śyāmasundara: It was from North Korea, the rice we bought in Moscow. It was so tough(?).

Prabhupāda: Life is very difficult there. You can simply eat meat, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: And liquor.

Prabhupāda: Liquor, that's all. And what they are drinking on the road? You did not see?

Śyāmasundara: I think it was some kind of wine, or...

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Śyāmasundara: ...liquor.

Prabhupāda: But these things were almost in every road. People were drinking (indistinct), students and drinking.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I remember, yes, it was, that was soft drinks, soft drinks.

Prabhupāda: Another thing, that shopping is so much troublesome.

Śyāmasundara: Telephone.

Prabhupāda: Who is calling? (indistinct). (indistinct) has said that...

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) these people were descendents of warrior class, kṣatriya class, so they are naturally inclined to those things, meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: No, the warrior class are not like that, kṣatriya. Not that they are addicted. These are caṇḍālas. They are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍālas, the dog eaters, the hog-eaters. In India they are sweeper class. Mlecchas (?). (indistinct). She comes from that family. Now (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Anyway, all property, all money, capital, communications, transport everything should be brought into central, centralize, centralized in the hands of the state.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, what profit will be (indistinct), the member in the central, they will exploit, just like Krushchev was doing, and he was (indistinct). So, our diagnosis is that tendency is there. Unless you reform that tendency, these things will be bogus. Now Russia, just according to Marx theory, they are doing that, but (indistinct) utilize it. How you shall stop this mentality? What is that program?

Śyāmasundara: Their program is first you change the social conditions then the mentality will change.

Prabhupāda: Impossible. It will simply react and there will be another revolution.

Śyāmasundara: So first you have to change the mentality and then the social structure will change.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless I am trained up to think that I do not possess anything, everything belongs to the State... But it is very difficult to change. Simply nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: But they think like that.

Prabhupāda: They think but (indistinct) utopian, that is another thing. But, so...

Śyāmasundara: They're all... Yes, this is an example. There was one woman, who was in charge of the, a maid in that hotel. Although she must have known from childhood that that hotel belongs to the state, the foodstuff belongs to the state, everything belongs to the state, still she had proprietorship, false proprietorship over her kitchen, that kitchen. She would not allow us into that kitchen.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Śyāmasundara: Even though it was not hers - we had every right to use it as much as her, she would not allow it.

Prabhupāda: Just see. In Russia. Yes. In the hotel. And there were some quarrels.

Śyāmasundara: Quarrels. She wanted the rights to that stove.

Prabhupāda: So how you can change it? Simply theorizing will not serve(?).

Devotee: In Russia when they find someone who is deviating like that they send them to Siberia. So their process of checking them is to punish them.

Prabhupāda: But there... Everything is going on simply on threatening. You see there is no heart to heart cooperation(?). Therefore everyone we saw, they were morose.

Śyāmasundara: Slogans. They simply speak slogans. Propaganda.

Prabhupāda: There is no cooperation. In this way, finally the people will non-cooperate and there will be revolution. Just like Gandhi's noncooperation. That stage will come. Nobody will cooperate with them. So these are foolish theories. It has no practical value.

Śyāmasundara: So their idea about... It says that all events are seen as physical reactions aimed at satisfying economic and material needs of mankind. In other words everything that happens historically is seen as a result of economic and material needs required.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. I have already explained. Because I want to make profit, you want to make profit, so as soon as there will be check in my profit-making or your profit-making, then we shall fight. The reason is that I want to make profit, you want to make profit, nobody is prepared to sacrifice profit. So as soon as our interests clash there is fight.

Śyāmasundara: So the sad truth is that the whole world is revolving on the principle of economic desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes economic desire. Profit, that is stated in the śāstras, (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. (indistinct) means profit. (indistinct) means... Why I want profit? Because if I have got money, then people will adore me (and) say (to me), "You are God. You are everything." (indistinct) Give me some (indistinct). Just like the beggars, (indistinct) their blessing, you become king, you will be so on and so on and so on, you are so great. In this way he thinks, "Oh I am great. All right, there." He becomes immediately sophisticated, "Oh I am so great. All right, there." This is there. He flatters.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man's nature is the result of historical forces. Therefore ideas change according to material conditions. In other words...

Prabhupāda: This ideas cannot change, these basic ideas, that I want some property, I want some adoration and I want some position. This will never change. These rascals, they do not know the basic principles of human psychology.

Śyāmasundara: Their philosophy is gross materialism. They believe everything in science matters.

Prabhupāda: Superficial, no depth of knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: So they even (indistinct) material in factors of clothing, matter (indistinct). It was his idea that matter changes through history according to economic development, economic changes.

Prabhupāda: We take our knowledge from authority. Just like this (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. We take it from authority. So this is the science. Everyone is after some profit, some adoration and some position. Therefore these things have been forbidden for persons who are advanced in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because if you have got all these material desires, then you cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). These are called anyābhila, desiring something for material profit. So, bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam, one must be completely free from all these desires, material desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167), without any aspiration for resultant action of knowledge and karma. Knowledge means, just like the jñānīs, they are cultivating knowledge, but their aim is how to become one with God. That is their aim. That means here he says to get a position to his satisfaction, now he wants to get the position of God. Let us say I am superficially (indistinct) that he is a sannyāsī, he does not possess anything but by his sacrificing all position it this world he wants to get possession of the Supreme Lord. He is (indistinct) that I have given up everything but I want to (indistinct) of your (indistinct). So this is going on. (indistinct) vairāgya. (indistinct) vairāgya.

Śyāmasundara: He has another slogan that "Human effort has no true reality." In other words...

Prabhupāda: Because does not know what is reality. He is a fool.

Śyāmasundara: Well he says that man's reality or man's nature changes through history according to material conditions.

Prabhupāda: Well that is the way of..., everything is changing. This tree is changing daily, your body is changing, that is not a very high philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that if you mold...

Prabhupāda: Jagat. Jagat means change. Jagat. (indistinct) jagat, everything is changing. Just like wind(?), time and tide. So that is not a very unique proposal. It is the nature's way, it is going on. And therefore I say this theory, this Marx theory, it is all changeable(?). It will not stay.

Śyāmasundara: Does this mean that man's nature, there is no fundamental nature that a man's reality is...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual nature. That is spiritual nature. We are teaching people to come to that standard, spiritual nature which will never change. Just like we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is not (indistinct). We are serving Kṛṣṇa and when we go to Vaikuntha, we serve Kṛṣṇa. That which is called nitya. Nitya means eternal. Nitya-yukta upāsate. Bhagavad-gītā, eternally engaged in the service of the Lord. Not like Māyāvādī. Māyāvādī philosophers, they will say that "Let me serve Kṛṣṇa now. As soon as I become liberated, I become God. I become God." This is another bluff. Just like I am serving you to take your favor and as soon as I get opportunity I ride upon you. You see? Now,

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct). This is Māyāvāda theory.

Śyāmasundara: They want to become...

Prabhupāda: One. One with God. That means (indistinct). Here, he could not enjoy. There are so many impediments. Therefore brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. This is all mithyā. So I become one with Brahman. This is jñānī. And karma means that I work hard, I get some result, and I enjoy. Karma-phala. But bhakti means that one should be completely free from all these desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11). One should not be covered with the results of jñāna and karma. Then what is bhakti? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuṣīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness if favor of Kṛṣṇa. Not in my favor. So long you think anything in your favor, that is not bhakti. So where is this mentality? You give up Kṛṣṇa, you replace Kṛṣṇa with the state, that how you can get your mentality, nothing in my favor, everything in favor of the state. It is impossible, but these rascals try. (indistinct) simply (indistinct). Just like Stalin. He got the position and as soon as he found somebody that is not in his favor, then immediately cut his throat. The same, the disease is there, that I want everything in my favor and I cover it by some illusion. So how you can be successful?

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that human nature has no reality of it's own, that it's a product of the material environment so that if you put a man in a factory...

Prabhupāda: So if it has no reality, why they are proposing something nonsense as real, if there is no reality?

Śyāmasundara: Well their idea is that if you put a man in a factory and you get him to identify with the state, the production, the scientific achievement, say...

Prabhupāda: That cannot be, that is our philosophy. Because he has got the basic disease. He is saying that I am working so hard, but the profit is not coming to me, he will be immediately slackened. Just like there is a proverb, proprietorship turns sand into gold. But as soon there is lacking of the sense that I am not proprietor, the gold becomes sand. That is position of Russia. They are not happy, they are not rich, in comparison to other European countries. Of course, no European country is as good, or as rich as America, that is a fact. That I have practically seen. But still, in Russia, they are poorer than other countries.

Śyāmasundara: One of their methods is to constantly whip the people with the idea that there may be war at any moment so the people are always thinking, "We must protect our country, we must protect our country," so they work.

Prabhupāda: But when they lose interest in the country on the basis of this basical idea, that I cannot make any profit, I have no proprietorship, then what interest I have got in this country?

Śyāmasundara: So only the negative, the negative stress forces them to work.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Your home may be in danger, your family may be lost if you don't work.

Prabhupāda: But if I work, what do I get. I work or not work, I get the same thing. Where is my incentive? Marshall's theory is that economic development is based on family affection.

Śyāmasundara: Is it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if I cannot give good food, good dress to my family... The same thing, I am working so hard, another man is working as laborer, I am scientist so my wife and children with the same dress and he is this, so I am losing my interest. And that is the position (indistinct). They are all impractical.

Śyāmasundara: He says that industrial and scientific work is the highest point of activity.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the... Unless the scientist and the industrialist get sufficient profit for himself, he will be reluctant to work for the state.

Śyāmasundara: Their goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being.

Prabhupāda: The human well-being means if you don't agree to me, I cut your throat, that's all. This is (indistinct). I am thinking in my way: human well being. Just like Stalin, he was thinking in his own way, human well-being, but anyone who disagrees with him, cut his throat. This is (indistinct). Lenin also (indistinct) like that.

Śyāmasundara: Well-being is relative.

Prabhupāda: Just like he killed all the royal family. So this killing, they will say it is well-being of the (indistinct). So this is not well-being for the royal family. But they theorized, it is well-being.

Śyāmasundara: So they say the well-being for the most people. If something has to be sacrificed for that then it is all right.

Prabhupāda: So that everyone thinks. Everyone says, but these are also incorrect propositions. So far Russia is concerned, we have seen practically, these things are not being applied. Like, at least we have seen, that in Moscow, all big, big buildings, they are not recent buildings, they are old, damaged buildings, and (indistinct). So that means their economic condition is not so sound. The old buildings are not very nicely renovated. So what is that building we we are going inside, getting out from the National Hotel? There was a big building, some historical building?

Śyāmasundara: Kremlin?

Prabhupāda: Library or something?

Śyāmasundara: Lenin's... Oh, the one with the round turret?

Prabhupāda: No, no, just like our hotel was there, and (indistinct) after a few steps there was a big building.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, the state planning?

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Śyāmasundara: State planning commision.

Prabhupāda: That is a very old building; that is not recent building. So similarly all the buildings (indistinct), they are not recent buildings.

Śyāmasundara: The only fairly recent building was the university. It has a big, big, big, big building.

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha, that may be, that was not very...

Śyāmasundara: Not very new.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) not very huge. That is not very extraordinary.

Śyāmasundara: Not compared to New York City.

Prabhupāda: No, not...

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that well-being is measured by how many telephones there are, how many refigerators, how many...

Prabhupāda: That they haven't got. There is no sufficient motor car. He knows when we asked Professor Kotovsky for call taxi. He said, "Oh this is Moscow, it is very,difficult." Do you remember that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Do you remember? He gave us direction: "If you kindly go in this way, in this way..."

Śyāmasundara: Take the bus.

Prabhupāda: Not if you can reach sooner, (indistinct) waiting for taxi. Do you remember?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember.

Prabhupāda: And we did it. We walked too. He gave us direction, "You go in this way, this way, then you will go to your hotel sooner than we wait for a taxi." So, either there is no sufficient taxi, (indistinct) company, they do not get profit, or there is no sufficient demand. People have no sufficient income. That is the... In your country as soon as you want a taxi, you get it. Simply call, "I want a taxi." The same thing India, immediately taxi is (indistinct) go. In Boston I was calling, "Simply send taxi." You have seen? You know better than me, that there is telephone in the taxi.

Śyāmasundara: In the taxi, yes.

Prabhupāda: And they are directing can you go this side, can you go this side, so as soon as he finds that where he is, from that place the taxi is nearer; he says, "Yes, I can go." So immediately his number is (indistinct) and he'll immediately inform the taxi stand. This is the system. So, where is that system? (indistinct) European country, they are so proud of their philosophy and people are not getting their goods, nice (indistinct). There are lines, big lines for purchasing things and for foreigners you are asked, "What is your citizenship." There is fight, which foreigner is here. (indistinct) that boy related that he cannot go out (indistinct). People are not happy, that's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that religion is an illusion and it must be condemned.

Prabhupāda: That's right, but his theory, he is become a nuisance now. (indistinct) but his philosophy is becoming illusion. That's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: In other words its not being practiced.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Within how many years? The revolution was in 1917.

Śyāmasundara: About a hundred years.

Prabhupāda: No hundred.

Śyāmasundara: Fifty.

Prabhupāda: Fifty. So within fifty years his philosophy is (indistinct). And in India, we do not know when religion began. You say Brahmā. So Brahmā's twelve hours... Twelve hours (indistinct) cannot calculate. So religion, our this Vedic religion is there since so many long years and instead of being devastated by the foreigner for the last two thousand years, still the religion, the system of religion, is running. It is not illusion, at least for India.

Śyāmasundara: I'll read his famous statement about religion. He says, "Religion is the (indistinct) of the oppressed (indistinct), the heart of the heartless world, just as it is the spirit of the spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

Prabhupāda: That's right, but the he does not know what is religion. His definition (indistinct) why he accepts the Vedic way; nobody knows what is religion. Our Vedic version is religion is the code given by God. So if God is fact then His law is also fact, it is not illusion. Just like Kṛṣṇa giving religion. There is (indistinct), sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), to surrender unto God. This is religion.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that everything is produced from economic struggle. So that religion is like a police force, and it is invented by the bourgeois or the capitalist as a technique to dissuade the masses from revolting by promising them a better existence, or a happier existence after death so that they can be...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) we are obliged to his proposal now. He has created a philosophy, which is being enforced by killing, by threatening.

Śyāmasundara: And he promises them a better future.

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Śyāmasundara: In the future it will be better.

Prabhupāda: So, he is doing (indistinct) more than the (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes, exactly. So his is a religion also. His philosophy is like a religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) he condemns.

Prabhupāda: Religion means (indistinct) he cannot give up, that is religion.

Śyāmasundara: He thinks everything can be changed, that nothing is permanent.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) our proposition, religion means dharma, the (indistinct) which you cannot give up. (indistinct) Just like I am standing on this floor. It is not possible to stand without this floor. I cannot say that I can stand without floor.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) and it is not possible. Similarly, one cannot give up his religion. And what is that religion? That religion is service. If that is religion, then he wants to give service to the humanity by his proposition, and that is his religion. Why he is giving this philosophy, writing this book? He wants to give some service to the humanity. That is (the) idea. So everyone is trying to give some service. The father is trying to give some service (to) the family, the statesman is trying to give some service to his country. (indistinct) Then he is also trying to give some service to the whole humanity. So this service spirit is always there. Either you become a Karl Marx, or you become Stalin, or you become Gandhi, or you become whatever you may be, the service spirit is there. In the family also, the father wants to give service. In state also, the prime minister wants to give some service. So this service spirit will be there. Now, we are giving service to so many things, and we are becoming confused and (indistinct). Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that you give up all other service, give Me service, I will (indistinct). You cannot remain without giving service. That's a fact. Either you give service to your country or to your family or even you have to give service to a dog. That you cannot do. Therefore the service is not... You may be a Hindu,you may be a Muslim, you may be anything, but that service spirit is there. And that service spirit is religion. But actually, by rendering service to so many objectives, we are frustrated. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66), you give service to Me and you'll be (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: The Communists, and even to a certain extent the capitalists, believe that service for the production of goods is the only real service. So they condemn us because we are not adding anything to production. We are not working, we are not building factories. So they condemn us.

Prabhupāda: How they can condemn? We are giving service to the humanity for better knowledge. Then high-court judge, he is not producing any grain in the field, so he is not giving any service? He is sitting on the chair and getting(?) five thousand, ten thousand (indistinct). You can say, "Oh, he is not giving any service, he is simply sitting in the chair."

Śyāmasundara: In one way he is, because he is enforcing the law that helps the...

Prabhupāda: What it may be, personally, if you simply think that this man comes in the office and sits down in the chair for three hours and he draws salary of six thousand.

Śyāmasundara: He protects my property though.

Prabhupāda: That means not that everyone has to work in the factory to produce.

Śyāmasundara: But he protects what I produce.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means brain is required how to give protection. So that is also service. But his theory is unless you give your manual labor in the factory or in the field, you are not doing service. He would simply give credit to the coolies and workers, that's all. But because his basic principle is coolie, coolie philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Peasants, they're called.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Indian man: Some time one thing happened...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: One Marwari first of all thought that his manager was getting two thousand rupees and doing nothing so he said, "I will do all the manager's work," and he (indistinct) scientist, engineer like. So he saved the two thousand rupees a month. After a couple of months that (indistinct) and that nobody could get right. And that man was (indistinct). Then he told that Marwari that you were giving me three thousand(indistinct).

Prabhupāda: There is a story that one king, he had ministers, a prime minister, so other salaried workers complained, "Sir, we are actually working. This minister is giving nothing, you are giving him so much salary. We are so (indistinct). So, "Oh, all right." So he called the minister, and brought one elephant. (indistinct), "Please immediately take this elephant and let me know what is the weight. Take this elephant. Weigh him." So they went to... All market, they went to find out a scale, how to weigh this. Where is the scale for weighing an elephant? So they could not do anything. They came back. "What happened?" "Sir, we could not get such a scale." "Oh, you could not weigh? All right. Minister, will you kindly weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir." "All right, take it." So within six minutes he said, "It is twenty mounds," and like that. You see? So they were standing. They were surprised: "How is that? Within some minutes he came back and he said the exact weight." So king asked that "How did you weigh? Did you get some very big scale?" "No sir. It is not possible to weigh the elephant in the scale. Very difficult." "Then how did you weigh?" "Yes, I took it in a boat. I got it on the boat. I saw the water mark, and I marked it, and then, after getting down the elephant, I put weight on it. So when it came to that water mark, I understood." So the king said, "Now you see the difference?" They agreed, "Yes." Buddhir yasya bālaṁ tasya nirbuddhes tu kuto bālam: "One who has got intelligence, he has got strength, and one who has got no intelligence, rascal fool, what strength there is?" These people are like that, rascal fools. We don't take advice from them. We take advice from Kṛṣṇa or His representative.

Śyāmasundara: So religion is not just a police force for keeping people in illusion.

Prabhupāda: He does not know what is religion. He does not know, and he is trying to define religion. He does not know. I have defined already religion. Religion is the service spirit. That is religion. Now, real religion is the service... Everyone is engaged in giving service, but he does not know where his service will be successful. That he does not know. Therefore Kṛṣṇa gives us indication that "You serve Me and your service spirit will be successful." That is religion.

Indian man: Sir, we see that Dr. Stanley Johnson... He is my friend. He said he was traveling in Moscow. One lady got in the train, and she told him, "You look religious. You must very rich also." No. "Sir, you look religious, so you must be very rich." He said, "Why? Why do I look rich?" Because they have the idea that only rich men can think of religion.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's their whole idea.

Prabhupāda: That means foolish, all set of foolish rascals, that's all. From his talking we can understand. He is the leader. So he is a big foolish man, and his followers must be all fools. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He said that religion is made up by the capitalists to keep the...

Prabhupāda: That means he does not know religion, what is religion, and he wants to define religion. What a foolish man he is. He does not know what is the meaning of religion. Religion means which you cannot change. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Yes. Even up to this day, because India is standing on religion, although it is (indistinct), it is all broken, still, all over the world - I have traveled - they are adoring India.

Śyāmasundara: But their explanation is that because everyone is so poor in India that they rely on religion for condolence.

Prabhupāda: But still, people come from other countries to learn religion here. And one Chinese writer, I have seen his book. He plainly writes that "If you want to study religion, it is India."

Śyāmasundara: But more people go from India there to learn science.

Indian man: No, no.

Prabhupāda: No. That is another thing, material science. Material science. But when people come from West to India, they do not come here to learn material science. They come here to understand what is God, these things.

Indian man: Not only that, you know. Gandhi told the same thing. He said when Kanjulatem(?) went to London, he was told that "Your religion is ancient. Why did you not come to teach us?" He said, "Whom to teach? Your fathers and grandfathers were jumping off trees."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Darwin's theory.

Indian man: He said, "Whom to come and teach? You were not there."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very good answer. Yes, Darwin says that all monkeys. "So you are monkey. How to teach you?" It is a very good answer, yes.

Śyāmasundara: So he said that God does not create man, that man creates God.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. He is a nonsense rascal. That is being proved by his talks. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. You cannot understand a rascal fool unless he talks. Now he is talking. And sooner I did not know that he is so fool, but I can understand now he is a great fool. This is the test. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. Mūrkha, you can... A mūrkha can dress himself very nicely, like gentleman sitting amongst the gentlemen, but a learned man and a fool will be understood as soon as he speaks. As soon as talks like a foolish man, one can understand, "Oh, he is a rascal." And as soon as one speaks great subject matter, then one can understand, "Oh, he is learned." So by his talking, now we can understand he is a great fool.

Śyāmasundara: So his follower was Nikolai Lenin. Mostly he reinforced all of Marx's ideas, but he added a few touches of his own. One is that revolution is fundamental, that history...

Prabhupāda: There were so many revolutions. It is not that they have made revolution. There were other revolutions, especially in Europe, the French Revolution. There were so many revolutions.

Śyāmasundara: He studied the revolutions, and he said that history moves in leaps and progresses toward the Communist leap. So he wants to make a leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this he calls the final stage of development of history.

Prabhupāda: No. We can say, and they may note it also, that after this, the Bolshevik Revolution, there will be many other revolutions, many other revolutions, because so long people will live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. That's all. Our proposition is, "Give up this mental concoction. Come to the right point. And that is spiritual platform." If one comes to that spiritual platform, that is... Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: (CC Madhya 22.42) "No more revolution. I am completely satisfied because I have now seen You." So unless one comes to God, the revolution will go on. Rather, this is final revolution. We don't say final revolution, but... We don't expect that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be taken by everyone, but within this material world the revolution will repeat unless one comes to God consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: The Hare Kṛṣṇa revolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He said that...

Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, so when one understands the Absolute Truth, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. And Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: (SB 7.5.31) "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Viṣṇu." Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come... We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world with the mentality of enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, we go to back... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam (BG 15.6). When you come to this position, that is happiness. Otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be... That is the world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."

Śyāmasundara: He says that this is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner impulse, this inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls the final revolution because it is the perfect answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can take it in this sense. If the Communist idea is spiritualized. So long the Communist idea will remain materialized, it is not final. We have got Communistic idea. Just like we believe... They believe that the state is the owner; we believe God is the owner. So this state is a small state, Russian state. They can be satisfied, but because it is wrong application... State is not the owner. Real owner is God. So from state, when they come to the conclusion, "Not the state but God is owner," then their Communistic idea will be fulfilled. And as they say that everything must be done for the state, we are actually teaching perfect Communism. We are teaching that Kṛṣṇa is the owner. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the supreme enjoyer. Everything is..." Just like in our society we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa because we know Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. Sarva-loka-maheś... He is the proprietor. So this Communistic idea is vague, but it can be perfected when they come to the conclusion, according to the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; He is the supreme friend of everyone. Then the people will be happy: "Oh, we have got a friend like Kṛṣṇa." Just like Arjuna was certain that "Kṛṣṇa is my charioteer. Oh, I am victorious." And it is confirmed, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ: (BG 18.78) "Where Yogeśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is there," yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ, tatra śrīr vijayo, "there victory and everything is there." So this is an idea. This idea can be welcomed provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state by God. Then it is...

Śyāmasundara: Well, that's pretty unlikely because they consider that reality is composed of what appears to our senses.

Prabhupāda: That is not reality. Then why there is revolution? If it is reality, then why it is being changed? So in this material world there is a vague idea, reality. Nothing reality. Everything false. Śaṅkarācārya therefore says, jagat mithyā: "It is false." There is no reality. What is reality? What is definition of reality?

Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.

Prabhupāda: Well, your senses are not reality.

Śyāmasundara: And economic determination.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are sensually thinking, but your senses are not reality. They are imperfect. Your eyes... You are thinking "I am seeing reality," but you are not seeing reality. Just like you see, daily seeing the sun. Really you are seeing. But you do not know what is sun. Then what is the benefit of that seeing?

Śyāmasundara: He says whatever is useful...

Prabhupāda: Useful, useful... So far you are seeing the sun, you know the sunshine is useful, the sun heat is useful. That does not mean that you have understood sun as reality. The superficial benefit you are getting. That does not mean that you know reality. Do you know? You are getting sunshine; you are utilizing it. Sun's heat, you are utilizing. Does it mean that you know really what is sun?

Śyāmasundara: He would say that the only reality instead of the sun is that the crops would grow, feed everyone.

Prabhupāda: That's all... They are simply by-products, simply by-products. But you do not know the reality. If you speak of reality, if you are satisfied only the by-product of the reality, then that is a different thing. But when you speak of reality it does not mean, because it appeals to your senses, therefore it is reality, because your senses are imperfect. You cannot realize anything perfectly with these defective senses.

Śyāmasundara: He says that if there is anything beyond the appearances, physical world, it is also physical, that everything is physical, everything is material.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Physical... Even physical, you do not know. Even this physical manifestation of this universe, what do you know about this? You do not know. There are so many planets. You cannot go even in the moon planet.

Śyāmasundara: He says it's only necessary to know what applies to us, what...

Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of reality. Don't talk of reality.

Śyāmasundara: I only need to know that which is useful to me.

Prabhupāda: That use, it is for you but because your knowledge is so poor. Just like a low class man, he will think, "This police constable is government." Because he is a low class man, the police constable takes him to the custody, and he is controlled by the police cons..., so he is father and mother. But for a high personality the police constable is nothing. There are so many others. So this reality is relative according to the person. He is a man with poor fund of knowledge. Therefore immediate effective, that is reality. Just like child. He thinks a lozenges which is two cent worth, he thinks it is reality. But to his father that two cents worth lozenges... (aside:) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. To his father, he will think, "What is this lozenges?" The child will ap... "Oh, father, it is so nice. It is heaven. It is so sweet." That means reality according to the person... So he is a man with poor fund of knowledge; therefore he is accepting reality which is giving him some immediate profit. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Just like he considers Kant's idea, "the things in themselves," to be "the things for us,"...

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can change that.

Śyāmasundara: ...instead of something existing in itself, that "everything exists for us and everything exists for my use."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animal also thinks that "This is reality." "I have got one goat," a tiger thinks, "to eat. Oh, this is reality."

Śyāmasundara: This is just for me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... These things are discussed in Upaniṣads. The students asks, "What is reality?" He says that "Think over." Now came, that "Eatables are reality," because he's a small child. So he says, "No, this is not reality. You think over." In this way, this way, one after, one after another, one after another, he finally came to Brahman. So this reality differs according to knowledge. Kṛṣṇa can... The same example: a child. Two things: one lugdoo and one one-thousand-dollar note - which one he will take? He will take this lugdoo. For him this is reality. He does not know the value of this paper. But for his father, which one of them, he can immediately... So reality means according to your knowledge. So these are poor class of men; therefore they are always talking of economic production and this and that, the immediate... That's all.

Śyāmasundara: In fact, when he says that what is practical is the criterion for truth, that is also relative, what is practical. Just like for the child the practical thing is the laddu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. For a child the lugdoo is reality, but that does not mean that is equal to that one thousand dollar note.

Śyāmasundara: So we have to find out what is really practical.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, practical, both things practical. But according to the person, the value is different.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. But isn't there an absolute value?

Prabhupāda: The absolute value is God. That is division (?). Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. That is our objective. We take in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "The original source of everything." Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi: "I meditate upon the Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth."

Śyāmasundara: And that is also practical?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Why not practical? Do you mean to say that you are, all Kṛṣṇa conscious people, you are after something impractical?

Śyāmasundara: Well, they will say...

Prabhupāda: They may say. What is your position? They may say.

Śyāmasundara: The practical thing is that it makes us happy.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: The practical result is that we are happy.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, unless you feel practical, why you are after it? That is my proposal. They may say whatever nonsense they can say.

Śyāmasundara: So the practical result should be satisfaction, happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are eating, but somebody says, "What you are doing?" But by eating, if you feel satisfaction of your hunger, that is practical. You haven't got to take certificate from others. You are eating; if you feel satisfaction, if you feel strong, that is the...

Śyāmasundara: So these men, both of them, they have a great faith that philosophy can change the world.

Prabhupāda: And this is the real philosophy. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is real... What is the original source? This is real philosophy. What is that Absolute Truth? Everything is relative truth. What is the Absolute Truth? That is philosophy, Vedānta philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: That has social effects that could change the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This, our whole Indian, Vedic civilization, is standing on Vedānta philosophy. And Bhāgavata is explanation of Vedānta philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: So the source of everything is...

Prabhupāda: Everything is there, ideal.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all today. Tomorrow we will discuss Mao Tse Tung, the Chinese Communist.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Mao.

Śyāmasundara: Mao. (end)