View source for Philosophy Discussion on Mao Tse Tung

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'''Śyāmasundara''': He stresses two aspects (in the) theory of dialectical materialism. The one on which he placed the most emphasis is the aspect of the pragmatic element of philosophy, that philosophy must have practical effect. And the other aspect is the contradiction between capitalism and communism, and this contradiction involves conflicts and eventual revolution. He agrees with Hegel that without conflict, there can be no progress. Do we accept this? Without conflict, there is no progress?

'''Prabhupāda''': Our Kurukṣetra battle is a conflict between Kurus and Pāṇḍavas. So after the conflict, the Pāṇḍavas became the kings. So that is admitted; without conflict, you cannot make progress.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Is that true on every level of...?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': ...chemical law? (?)

'''Prabhupāda''': Oh yes. Mind is saṅkalpa and vikalpa. Mind's business is to accept something and reject something. So in this way, accepting and rejecting, if the mind is sound, then we come to some conclusion by intelligence. Accepting and rejecting, this is conflict. Then by intelligence we take something out of this conflict.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So this idea that no progress is made in any..., except through conflict.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': How is that exactly?

'''Prabhupāda''': This is conflict. Conflict means if I don't agree with you and if you do not agree with me, that is conflict.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So some progress is made from that conflict?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. But the two can(?) fight or conflict and one judgement giver.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And this is progress.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Just like this morning I was explaining that your statement should be according to the standard process, vidhi-mārga. So sādhu-śāstra-guru, three authorities: saintly persons, scripture, and spiritual master. So all of them should be, should agree. There is a con... Just like two litigants, they go to the court and the judges give judgement. Similarly, whenever there is conflict, to come to a conclusion, we must refer to sādhu, śāstra, and guru. Then we get the right judgement.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So his idea of conflict is on the social level, between classes of men. It also carries over into historical levels...

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, that conflict is no use. Social... So far the modern society is concerned, it is based on mental speculation. There is no standard. Some society has a different standard, another society has a different standard. But none of them are based on some authority. Therefore such conflict cannot bring you into some right conflict if both of them are wrong. The so-called capitalist and so-called communist, they are all on the wrong basis. So by such conflict you cannot come to a recognized standard.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So by "conflict" you mean the mind's engagement with...

'''Prabhupāda''': No. I mean to say that... Just like two parties fighting on some point. They come to the court and the judgement is given by the judge. So the decision is made on the judgement.  Not by simply conflict. If two parties are fighting for life together, they cannot come to the conclusion because they are fighting on the wrong basis.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So this theory of Mao Tse Tung actually rises out of Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest.

'''Prabhupāda''': Whatever it may be. Darwin's theory we have already discussed, and that is nonsense.

'''Śyāmasundara''': "Might makes right."

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': They think whoever wins in a battle of ideas must have the right idea.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. That is based on "might is right," but we do not accept this theory. We say, "right is might," not "might is right." Yes. If you are right, then you have got might. Otherwise, simply if you have got might, that is not right.

'''Śyāmasundara''': You were speaking earlier about the conflict of the mind, mental conflict, judging...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Judgement is by the intelligence.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So whenever there is perception coming into the mind, there is a conflict?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. And the intelligence. Just like in the same example. Whether it is to be done, it is not to be done, then your intelligence gives you advice that "In the Vedas this is the right point." So you accept it. Intelligence gives you advice that "In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said like this." Then we accept it. Then that conflict is nice.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Some Christians say that in the mind there is a struggle between God and the devil, and this conflict is always continually going on.

'''Prabhupāda''': No, no. That is wrong thing. God does not come down to your mind, God and devil. That is mind's action. Sometimes he accepts, sometimes he rejects. So either you can say God and devil or whatever. That is mind's business. But that is not final conclusion. When you apply your intelligence with reference to the sādhu and śāstra and make a conclusion, that is right.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So on this level progress is made through conflict.

'''Prabhupāda''': Conflict with intelligence. That means conflict is in the lower stage. So to mitigate this conflict you have to take consultation from the higher stage. That is intelligence. That Mao's theory is simply by conflict of the mental concoctioners. That will not come to a conclusion. That will never be right conclusion.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that all political power comes out of the barrel of a gun. Comes from the barrel of a gun.

'''Prabhupāda''': Because he is rude. He cannot have that there may be, amongst the sober gentlemen, the gun is reasoning. And for the crude rascals argumentum vaculam. Of course, the gun reason is sometimes needed when the other party is completely animal. But if both of them are animals, then what further decision can come? You see? Therefore our conclusion is taken from śāstra. The gun is used also in terms of śāstra. Just like Kṛṣṇa first of all wanted to settle up the fight, the opposing elements, the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas. He personally became a messenger and personally requested Duryodhana that "All right. Settle up things. They are kṣatriyas. They cannot take up the business of a brāhmaṇa or a vaiśya. Give them five villages, let them rule, and they will be satisfied." But he said, "Oh, what to speak of five villages, I cannot spare the, that small portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle." Then  Kṛṣṇa said, "Yes. Then you do not come to reason? Then let us turn to weapon." So this śāstra and śastra. When śāstra fails, then according to śāstra, there is śastra. Śastra means weapon. Both of them come from the śas-dhātu. Śas-dhātu, from śas-dhātu we take śāstra, śastra, śāsana, śiṣya, like that. It is coming from the same root.

'''Śyāmasundara''': What is that root?

'''Prabhupāda''': Śas. Śas means control. From śas-dhātu... Śiṣya means who voluntarily accepts the spiritual master's ruling. That is called śiṣya, disciple. From the same śas-dhātu. The spiritual master rules over him according to śāstra, and he accepts voluntarily. So conflict there is, but the mediator is śas.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Controller.

'''Prabhupāda''': Controller. Otherwise, there is no end of struggle if you don't accept an authorized mediator.

'''Śyāmasundara''': This Mao Tse Tung...

'''Prabhupāda''': And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad..., yah śāstra-vidhim. Śāstra from that śas-dhātu. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya, giving it up, decides by his whims, na siddhim avāpnoti, they'll never get any siddhi, perfection. Therefore the śāstra should be mediator. But these people have no śāstras. They have got simply that barrel of gun. That's all. And that is very rude. And it will never come to perfection. For the temporary time, this party may win or that party may win. That will never... That is the position in the modern world. They have no authoritative śāstra. They manufacture their own way, and therefore there is no peace. First World War, Second World War, Third World War, and there cannot be any peace. As soon as you become strong, you declare war. Hitler thought, "I am now strong. Let me declare war." And another strong party, America came, Russia came. He was killed. So this is no conclusion. And even after Hitler's being killed, there is no conclusion. So this sort of conflict will never bring any peace. That will go on. That is struggle for existence. That is fighting like animals. Two dogs fighting, two hogs fighting, but that is not conclusion. That fighting will go on so long people will remain as dogs and hogs. That will go on. There is no question of peace.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So real progress only comes through...

'''Prabhupāda''': Authoritative decision. If we accept that, then that is real conclusion.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that there is conflict, and you say that...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Conflict is always there. But you cannot come to the conclusion unless you take the right decision from the authority. Two litigants, there is conflict. I say that "You do this." You say, "No, why can I do it? Our agreement is different." So there is conflict. So you go to the court and take the right decision from the judge.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He attacks speculators and especially empiricists, or those who draw conclusions of reality through their fragmentary sense perception.

'''Prabhupāda''': He is also doing that. He is also one of them. Because he says that ultimately the barrel... What is that?

'''Śyāmasundara''': That all political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's all. He is one of them.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Speculator.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, he says that the criterion for truth is  man's social practice, that it has proven over...

'''Prabhupāda''': But what is that social practice? What is the standard of social practice? You manufacture...

'''Śyāmasundara''': Whatever is practical for the most people's happiness, that is truth.

'''Prabhupāda''': So practical happiness, that differs between persons. Just like ordinarily in your country boys and girls meet very intimately, without any restriction. But we say, "No mixing." So which is practical? That is according to circumstance? For our purpose, if we allow illegitimate sex, then there is no spiritual progress. Therefore this stoppage is practical. And because others, they have no spiritual idea, they think, "Oh, why not? Why the sex urges should be restricted? Let us enjoy it. It is enjoyment." They're animals. So which one ms practical? This one is practical or... That practical means according to the aim and object.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Relative.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. But if one understands what is spiritual progress, what is his need, then he'll understand that these are all practical.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Their idea of what was practical would mean that which gives the most material benefit to the most people.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is nonsense. Therefore they are suffering. The whole world is suffering. They do not know what is real progress or what the human life is meant for. They are taking human life is as good as hogs' life or animals' life. We don't take it. We say the human life has got a special importance for spiritual realization. But these people, they have no such idea. So their practical purpose, our practical purpose is different. They are ignorant. What is the aim of life, they do not know. They take animal life and human life is the same. Simply it should be a little polished. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that all ideas or theories find their verification or their fulfillment through social practice. In other words, if something is a theory, if it's practiced and found to be true, then it is true.

'''Prabhupāda''': Here it is true. In India still, those who are spiritualists. We have seen. Now, they are tolerating severe cold without any difficulty. For a materialist it is very difficult. From practical also, those who are advanced in spiritual life, they have no disease practically. They don't go to doctor. So these are practical. How can you deny these are not practical? They can live any condition, without any food, without any vitamin. Are these not practical? So we take that advancement of spiritual life makes our life more comfortable. That is practical. Without being dependent on doctors and this vitamin and that, so many, so many things. That is practical. If I have to depend on so many things, then where is the practical? Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that if you can... (break)

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that natural laws and ideas, verification of ideas, comes about through class struggle, material production and scientific experiment. That which we know for sure, certainty.

'''Prabhupāda''': (to guest) How are you?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Certain knowledge is gathered from these three sources: class struggle, material production, and scientific experiment.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. But so-called scientists, they sometimes put forward wrong theories.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, he says that the proof is if it works socially, if it has a social effect.

'''Prabhupāda''': That I am coming to. Suppose... Just like a living man and a dead man. So what is the scientific statement about this dead man? What do they say?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, that he's just a lump of chemicals.

'''Prabhupāda''': All right. Then if you are scientist, then bring that chemical and fulfill it. That is experiment. If that experiment is not possible, then what is the use of your scientific statement, "It is loss of chemicals"?

'''Śyāmasundara''': The idea is that the theories are not practical unless they are tested socially, unless there is social benefit.

'''Prabhupāda''': It is not the question of social. You say that this body is dead because some chemicals are wanting. So you should make experiment that such chemicals be replaced and the body may come out again in life. Then your scientific statement is... Otherwise, it is most unscientific. So how to test the scientist? His theory is not practical. You say that the dead man means some chemical wanting. So you put that chemical. Just like when a motorcar is stopped, so the engineer comes, a mechanic comes, he says, "This part is broken. It should be replaced." All right, replace it and car moves. But you say that "This part is wanting; therefore this man is dead." Now you replace that part. Then it will be scientific because it will be proved by experiment.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, speaking more of, for instance, Marx's theory, that...

'''Prabhupāda''': Now, first of all... He said scientific. So I mean to say that so-called scientists are imperfect. So what is the value of such scientific statement? There are so many scientists. Their statements are imperfect. Or other scientists differ. Then what is real scientific? You are scientist and he is scientist. I am talking on the scientific... Experiment. He says experiment. So when a scientist says that "This is wanting," then by experiment let him prove it that actually this is wanting.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, still, his basic idea is that all theories, all natural laws are proven in practice, social practice, that... For instance, Marx's idea that capital is not necessary for production, that profit is not necessary for production. It's proven by the communist state where there is no profit-taking, there is no capital making, and still the wheels(?) of production go on.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. So that sense is by nature's law. But artificially we have adopted so many things. That means, nature's law means God's law. So God's law is that you have got land. You till and you get production. But if you cannot till personally, then you have to employ somebody else. So you have to pay him. Therefore you must require profit.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But excess profit, excess profit is taken by the owner...

'''Prabhupāda''': Anyway, I have hired one man to work for me. I have to pay him and therefore I require profit.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But isn't the tendency there to exploit the man and take more profit?

'''Prabhupāda''': That must be. Not only the capitalists exploit, the laborers also exploit.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Laborers exploit?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. One laborer is charging five rupees, another laborer is charging ten rupees. That profiteering, exploiting tendency is everywhere. Why the laborers strike? To make more profit. Do you mean to say because he is laborer he is free from this profit-making desires?

'''Śyāmasundara''': But their idea is that if the means of production are owned by the people, that this condition, this social condition, will wither away.

'''Prabhupāda''': That was perfect in Vedic system, that you... The land is supposed to belong to the government or to the king. The king gives you the land that "You make production and give me tax, one-fourth. That's all." So there is no question of profit. If you have produced one kilo, give one-fourth kilo to the king as tax. That is real social system. Actually, according to our Vedic system, everything belongs to God and the king is supposed to be representative of God to manage things. So for his managerial work he requires some money. Therefore I have taken some land for my livelihood. So whatever production is there, I pay one-fourth to the king for management. This is nice system. As soon as the tax is realized in terms of pound, shillings, pence, whole difficulty arises. I have produced ten mounds of rice and out of that one-fourth I give to the government or to the king. So I have no anxiety. If I produce twenty mounds, I give one-fourth. If I produce ten mounds, I give one-fourth. If I don't produce I don't give. This is perfect system.

'''Pañcadraviḍa''': So if I give one quarter to the king that's the representative of God, what if the brāhmaṇa and the spiritual master...

'''Prabhupāda''': That we shall talk later on.

'''Śyāmasundara''': This Mao Tse Tung believes in using a constant ideological struggle as an accepted...

'''Prabhupāda''': No, no. This ideology has no struggle. Whatever is produced, you pay one-fourth. There is no question of struggle. If I have to pay some fixed tax, ten rupees, for this land I have secured, but if I don't produce, I have no ten rupees, there is struggle. Where I get this ten rupees? Then I have to take loan from somebody else. That brings(?) my anxiety. But if this system is accepted, then I, if I produce, I give you one-fourth; if I don't produce, I have no anxiety. That is perfect system.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that the constant ideological propaganda, you have to remind the people of the fears behind the practice. If there is risk,(?) something, you have to remind them.

'''Prabhupāda''': But why this is a constant struggle for ideological? You accept this ideal. So there is no anxiety. If I produce, I pay. If I don't produce, I don't pay. Is it not better?

'''Śyāmasundara''': The idea is...

'''Prabhupāda''': Why I shall develop an ideological perfection by conflict, by struggle, by talking in the parliament, and talking to the leaders, and... Make this simple method that whatever you produce, you give me one-fourth. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He believes that whatever is produced, all should be given. Everything.

'''Prabhupāda''': Why all should be given? That means he's killed my independence.

'''Śyāmasundara''': There should be no proprietorship. There should be no private property.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Proprietor should be allotted proprietor, that I belong... You give me... The king or the government gives me this land. So that is my proprietorship. Just like I have taken this house. So it is higher proprietorship. I do not allow anybody to come here. That is trespassing.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Even the farms in China are collective. The people work together, cooperate to produce such and such products. They give the whole product to the state. In return, they receive their lodging, their cloths.

'''Prabhupāda''': But that will never give them satisfaction. That is artificial.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So they need constant ideological brainwashing to maintain this state of activity.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is foolishness. If I know that "This land belongs to me, government has allotted me," so I can develop in my own way. I have got freedom. Wholesale dependence, what is the value of this?

'''Śyāmasundara''': He believes that that's a false idea, this idea of freedom or proprietorship. That it only leads to exploitation and misery for others.

'''Prabhupāda''': Misery for others?

'''Śyāmasundara''': If I have proprietorship of something, then that means someone else is deprived of that.

'''Prabhupāda''': Why deprived? He has got proprietorship. You have got proprietorship, I have got proprietorship. Why you are deprived? Because government has given me some land, it does not mean that a fellow subject, my brother, should not be given. As I have got, he has got. Therefore our Upaniṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā ([[ISO 1|ISO 1]]). "Whatever is given to you by God, you be satisfied." That is Vedic system. Therefore you find, a poor man is also satisfied and a rich man is also satisfied. The poor man thinks that "God has given me this; so I must be satisfied with this and execute my God consciousness." And the rich man also thinks that "God has given me this; so let me be satisfied with this and save my time." There is no competition.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Under this philosophy, the rich man does not exploit the worker, take his work for profit?

'''Prabhupāda''': Sometimes the worker wants rich man's exploitation. If he has no work, if the rich man does not give him work, he thinks unemployed. You have seen practically; the Africans, by serving, they are more satisfied. Just like a dog. A dog having a master is more happy, and a dog having no master is a street dog. He is unhappy. So there are certain stages where one is happy having a master, having a protector. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam ([[BG 18.44|BG 18.44]]). A śūdra mentality. Because he has no higher intelligence. He has to depend on some good master. That is his happiness. But when the master exploits him, that is a different thing. But one class should be master, another class should be servant - that is nature's arrangement.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, this Mao Tse Tung's (sic:) systemology, or his method of knowing truth, of knowing things, is that first of all there is the perceptual, or the phenomenal, and this becomes the conceptual, or inferential. In other words, if you..., you can condition people to a certain type of truth by presenting some phenomenon repeatedly, over and over again, until they accept it, they make a conception: "This is the truth."

'''Prabhupāda''': So that is our process. We say that perceptual fact is that we are controlled. Every one of us, controlled. Who can deny it? Why you are running on this fan? Because you are controlled. There is excessive heat controlling you. Therefore I am trying to counteract it. In every step you are controlled by the laws of nature. So how he thinks that he is independent? Why does he manufacture so many so-called laws of independence? In fact he is controlled. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ([[BG 3.27|BG 3.27]]). He is in contact with some modes of material nature, and he is controlled by them. So why does he not accept that "I am not independent, I am controlled. The basic principle is that I am controlled." Then if one is actually  conversant with the laws of control, then he makes adjustment according to that. One being controlled, how he can become controller? This is phenomenon. Where one is... Let any man come and say boldly that "I am not controlled." Who is that man? Find out any man. We are sitting, so many men here. Let any one of us declare that "I am not controlled." So therefore basic principle is that "I am controlled." So how this position of being controlled can be perfect, that should be our study. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We say that you are controlled. So the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. So you voluntarily surrender yourself, that "Kṛṣṇa, from this day... I was struggling against Your laws. Now I fully surrender."

'''Śyāmasundara''': So his idea is that if you present a certain idea to a certain group of people often enough, more and more...

'''Prabhupāda''': That we are doing. We are repeatedly said that "You are controlled, you are controlled, you are controlled." (laughter)

'''Śyāmasundara''': But what if you said... Like Mao Tse Tung might say, "I am the leader. I am the leader. I am the leader. I am the leader."

'''Prabhupāda''': That is false. You are not leader.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But they will accept it as true.

'''Prabhupāda''': Why Mao becoming old? He is controlled. Is it that he will not die? Then he is controlled.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He may die, but they will still accept him as the leader.

'''Prabhupāda''': Well... Accept leader, a group of rogues and thieves accept another big thief as leader. (laughter) That is another thing. You see? That does not mean he is leader?

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the nature of truth is not always derived from phenomenon. In other words, I can tell these people that this certain rock is God often enough so that they will eventually say, "Yes, this rock is God."

'''Prabhupāda''': No, we don't say the rock is God. We say God is God. We are not so foolish that we say rock is God.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But if everything was telling me from the moment of my birth, my parents, slogans on the walls, everything was saying...

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Even if you have not heard... But you cannot change that opinion. Suppose my parents have taught me that "There is God and we are controlled," so you cannot change this. You say that you are not controlled. You prove that you are not controlled. Then you can say, "My parents have taught me wrongly." You are becoming old. You are becoming diseased. You will have to die. You have taken birth under certain system. So you are controlled. My parents have taught me that "There is God, who is supreme controller, and we are all controlled." Now you change this first of all. You are talking so nice thing, but you first of all say that you are not controlled. That is our proposition. If you say that you are not controlled, then you are mad.

'''Śyāmasundara''': No. I would admit that I am controlled. Everyone in my Communist state is controlled because we work under the...

'''Prabhupāda''': Apart from Communist state, by nature's law... You have spoken about nature's law. So we are controlled by the nature's law. Who can deny it? When there is severe cold, I am controlled. When there is severe heat, I am controlled. When there is epidemic, I am controlled. When there is famine, I am controlled. When there is flood, I am controlled. So how you can say that you are not controlled? You are not independent. The basic principle is that you are not independent.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Mao Tse Tung uses this as the basis of his...

'''Prabhupāda''': Basis is that you are controlled. That is mistake.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His methodology is to present slogans to the people...

'''Prabhupāda''': But you may manufacture slogans. First of all, let us talk on the principles. Everyone is controlled. How Mao can deny it?

'''Śyāmasundara''': He wants to be the controller. He can control everyone's...

'''Prabhupāda''': He is himself controlled. How he can be controller? If you are blind, how you can lead? I am also blind. You must have eyes; then you can control.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He thinks in this philosophy, Marxist philosophy, that that is the truth so that he can present slogans to the people in such a way that they become controlled by that truth.

'''Prabhupāda''': What is the value of your slogan if you are yourself controlled? Our point is that if you are yourself blind, how you can lead other blind men?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, he's convinced that that is the truth. So he...

'''Prabhupāda''': He is convinced, but where is the proof that his leadership should be accepted?

'''Śyāmasundara''': That it works socially. That people are becoming happy under this philosophy.

'''Prabhupāda''': But shall not be happy. If I am given under the control of Communist government, I shall not be happy. We were there for a week in Moscow. We were not at all happy. That boy who came to us, he is not happy. So where is your perfection? You make everyone happy; then it is all right. If you think that "I am happy, my brother is happy. That's all right. Let others go to hell," that is another thing.

'''Revatīnandana''': But Mao will say that the Russian Communism is religionism, that it is not real Communism. Therefore they are unhappy.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's all right. The Russian Communism is failing; similarly, some days after, his communism also will fail. Because they are all imperfect. To criticize another man does not mean you are perfect. That is a different thing. You have to prove that you are perfect. "Judge not others lest you may be judged."

'''Devotee''': "Lest ye be judged and found wanting."

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. So this is going on. That is not Mao is a very perfect man, his theory is perfect, he is better than... It is simply mental speculation.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But he examines his theory, and he sees that the nature of his theory or the nature of things is this conflict. This is the nature of things.

'''Prabhupāda''': That we have already talked; there is conflict. Conflict is going on.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So he says that there are two types of conflict in social structure. One is between communists and their enemies, such as the U.S. imperialists; and those within the Communist party itself.

'''Prabhupāda''': So... There... In communism... That means there are enemies. However perfect you may be, you have got enemies. Outside, inside both. Then what is your perfection?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, he says that through the Communist system we can...

'''Prabhupāda''': That enemy, everyone is... That you are enemy of the capitalists. Similarly, your enemy is capitalist.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the whole idea is to make the whole world  Communist and there won't be any more enemies.

'''Prabhupāda''': No, no. Why the world... First of all, why the whole world will accept this Communism unless it is perfect? If it is imperfect, how do you expect that the whole world will accept it?

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that it is perfect, but there may be some conflict within the party because someone has not understood the philosophy perfectly.

'''Prabhupāda''': Or perhaps you have not understood your philosophy; therefore you are so much optimistic.

'''Revatīnandana''': He says there will be struggle against the opposing side. It will overpower the opposing side, make everything communist, and then by interaction of...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is in every sphere. Why communist?

'''Śyāmasundara''': He has another slogan to resolve conflicts within the party of "Unity, criticism, unity." A dialectic. "Unity, criticism... The thesis is unity, the antithesis is criticism..."

'''Prabhupāda''': Then what is his reply to this dialectic proposition, that I say that "You, Mr. Mao, you are not independent. You are controlled."

'''Śyāmasundara''': He'll say, "Yes, I am controlled by the higher truth of the socialist law, communistic law."

'''Prabhupāda''': No, even there is no communistic law, still you are controlled, apart from the communistic law. You are controlled by the nature's law. How you can avoid it?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, being only a combination of matter, I must be born and I must die, everyone.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. But you want to be independent. You want to be uncontrolled. That is not possible. Why it is not possible? And if you are controlled, who is controlling you? What is the background of that control? So these answers they cannot give. They avoid.

'''Śyāmasundara''': They are not interested because they say that...

'''Prabhupāda''': They are not interested, that is not a fact. If I challenge you... Just like here is Mr. (indistinct), a lawyer He's... In the law court he is asking one question. If the other party says, "I am not interested," that will not be sufficient. Do you think? (laughs) You must be interested. You are in the law court.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says the only criterion for truth is its practical application in society.

'''Prabhupāda''': The practical... First of all, you prove practically that you are independent.

'''Śyāmasundara''': It wouldn't make any difference because...

'''Prabhupāda''': Why not difference? My point is if your basic principle is wrong, then how you can make a perfect proposal?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, I'm not concerned with questions about my origin or about the nature of matter except that...

'''Prabhupāda''': Then you are interested in the superficial things.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. Only as it applies to society.

'''Prabhupāda''': That superficial means it is changing. It will never be perfect. If you take superficial thing, then it is changing always. That is nature's law.

'''Śyāmasundara''': My only interest is in the dictatorship of the proletariat, that everyone should have an equal opportunity, equal pay, equal property, everything.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is theory, but it will never be successful. Why in Russia there is manager's pay and the worker's pay? Why not equal pay?

'''Revatīnandana''': He says, "Abolish that." Mao says, "Abolish  that system."

'''Devotee''': No, Russia is not a Communist state.

'''Revatīnandana''': The Chinese scoff at the Russians, that they are not Communist. They say we will not abide by this different manager... Only one pay scale for everybody.

'''Prabhupāda''': First of all, this Communistic idea came from Russia and China imitated.

'''Devotee''': Well, it came out of the proponent philosophers.

'''Prabhupāda''': Anyway, the Russia is supposed to be leader of the Communistic idea.

'''Revatīnandana''': They don't accept anymore. There is Mao...

'''Prabhupāda''': Similarly, sometimes after, he will not be accepted. That is my proposition. As Russia is not accepted now, some days after, he will not be accepted. Similarly, your also theory will fail. That is my proposition. Because I challenge that your theory is not perfect. Because Russia's theory was not perfect, it has failed. Similarly, I say your theory is also imperfect, therefore it will fail. Anything imperfect will fail. That is my proposition.

'''Revatīnandana''': His propaganda is that it is perfect because it has made the Chinese people...

'''Prabhupāda''': Propaganda, by propaganda you can do anything. That is different thing. But fact is fact. If you theory is not perfect, you make however propaganda, it will fail.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But our people are all employed, they are all clothed nicely...

'''Prabhupāda''': Temporarily it may be very glittering. Just like a polished thing, temporarily it looks very brilliant, shine. But in course of time it will become black. That's all. Because it is not actually shining. Gold shining and artificial shining, there is difference.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that these class conflicts can be resolved through prosecution and repression of counter-revolutionaries at home, and...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is going on. It is not a new thing, that in order to establish peace you kill somebody.

'''Śyāmasundara''': If there's any counter-revolutionaries, you prosecute or repress them.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is going on. That is not a new thing. That is going on in the animal kingdom. What is the use of your philosophy? Without having philosophy, this is going on in the animal kingdom. So what is the use of your philosophy? By philosophy, you give something which will not create any conflict. But by conflict, by crushing, by subduing, if you want to establish your peace, then what is the value of this peace?

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says we also have to prevent foreign intervention.

'''Prabhupāda''': If your theory is perfect, why there should be foreign intervention?

'''Revatīnandana''': How foreign intervention will be dangerous to you if you are perfect?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Well, because the capitalists are...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is bias. Your people also become capitalist. Why Kruschev was driven away? Because he was becoming... So because you are all imperfect, you think in a different way, but ultimately you will find that it is useless. Childish. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Now they are making friends with the capitalist materialists. The capitalist materialists were flown to Peking recently to save Mao Tse Tung's life because he was dying of a  major heart attack. So they called a major scientist from America to help save his life. (laughter)

'''Prabhupāda''': Just see.

'''Revatīnandana''': Now they have invited the American president to come there for talks. The imperfect one, they are inviting to talk with him now for some compromise.

'''Prabhupāda''': This is described in Bhāgavata: punah punaś carvita-carvaṇānām ([[SB 7.5.30|SB 7.5.30]]), "chewing the chewed." Once it is chewed, it is thrown away, and then again, "Let me see if there is any juice." (laughter) Chewing the chewed. Or in plain words, mental concoction. The mind's business is acceptance and rejection. First of all, reject American capitalists; then again accept for consulting. That means they are hovering on the mental plane. They have no intelligence. In big scale, accepting and rejecting. That's all. It is the business of the mind. As in your personal mind you see, you accept something immediately and again reject, "No, no, it is not good." The same thing is going on in a bigger scale. That's all. They are not... Just like a pickpocket and a big scientific thief. Huh? They are trying to... Modern, scientifically, they want to rob the bank. They set the bomb. And pickpocket is satisfied by taking one paisa from your pocket. But the principle is stealing. Because you are very organized thief, it does not mean from the eyes of the law you are honest. You cannot say in the court that "I am organized thief. I am scientific thief, and he is a pickpocket." In the eyes of the law you are also punishable, he is also punishable. That's all. So they are, I mean to say, large-scale speculators. That's all. But it is, after all, speculation. It has no fact.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So these governments, meaning American government or Chinese government, they live on slogans, on ideas, mental concoctions.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's all. Mental concoction. They are not perfect. Perfection is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If they are intelligent, they should consider this movement very seriously and apply it for practical life all over the world. That will make people happy.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So that's all.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's all.

'''Devotee''': Is it not a fallacy to think that by adding sense gratification we will decrease the demands, desires for more?

'''Prabhupāda''': That is not possible. Adding sense gratification means adding ghee, pouring ghee on the fire.

'''Devotee''': Yes. But some has to be there as the senses, which they're denying. The basis of their ideology is that conflict brings about growth or progress. If they want a peaceful society, they're still trying to get rid of their conflicts.

'''Prabhupāda''': That we have discussed in the beginning. Conflict must be decided by higher intelligence. Just like I have given yesterday, there is conflict between two litigants and the high-court judge decides. So conflict there must be, but it must be decided by higher authorities. That's all. Otherwise it will go on. If you don't go to the higher authorities, then it will go on. It will never end, conflict.

'''Revatīnandana''': It also follows from his philosophy that if somebody defeats him and throws him out, that other person was right.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Revatīnandana''': He was wrong.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is right.

'''Revatīnandana''': So his philosophy is very conditional.

'''Devotee''': The antithesis is there in his teaching. He defeated his  own instruction in his preface. That's what I was trying to... One thing about Mao's Communism in Russia in its relation to the Soviet Communism is that Soviet Russians are finding that the (indistinct) in a commune is going down because the family life is broken up. The children are taken away from the parents. The parents live separately and see one another occasionally. Similarly, it's dropping still more sharply in Red China, Mao's state. So Mao, in an effort to curb back and to reduce things to their natural order, wants to still further dissolve the struc...

'''Prabhupāda''': But we don't accept either Mao or Marx. We don't accept anyone.

'''Devotee''': Why are you discussing them?

'''Prabhupāda''': Discussing to defeat their philosophy. Because their philosophy is accepted in the world, so we are giving the weak points of that philosophy.

'''Devotee''': When I (indistinct) they simply say I'm dogmatic, but when I defeat them in terms of their own premises, that they have to admit.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That we are doing. We are defeating on their own principles. On principles. Just like we are speaking that Mao thinks that he is not controlled. He should be controller. But he is controlled by heart attack. Then how he can be controller? The same example. If you are blind, how you can lead other blind men? First of all, he has to know that "I am so powerful, why I am being controlled by heart attack?" Let them philosophize on this point. You must admit that "I am controlled." So if I am controller, then how I can be supreme controller?

'''Revatīnandana''': Or if I am perfect, then why do I have to submit to imperfection?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Revatīnandana''': That means actually I am not perfect. Therefore what qualification have I got to give truth?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. You cannot give. You are cheating only. Because you are imperfect, but you are giving ideas to people. What right you have that you are teaching?

'''Revatīnandana''': Suppose he says, "Yes, it's true, I will die. We all will die. I am just giving a formula for now until I die. Until we die, then we will do like this."

'''Prabhupāda''': Then all will die. Those who will follow, he will also die, they will also die. So first of all, stop yourself from death.

'''Revatīnandana''': They will say "That cannot be done."

'''Prabhupāda''': Why it cannot be done? Search out the cause. You don't want to die, but you are being forced to die. First of all, answer this problem. Otherwise, "Devils cite scripture." You first of all become perfect. Why you remain a devil? How you can cite scripture?

'''Pañcadraviḍa''': Also his (indistinct) that "If we are imperfect, how can we govern?" Their whole slogan, Communist slogan is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." How can you get from a person according to his ability and how can you give according to his needs? If all the time there are the four errors of cheating propensity and so many other factors of imperfection are there, how can you possibly take a person and treat him as an individual and expect to have any kind of a reasonable conception of what he is capable of doing? (end)