710206 - Lecture SB 06.03.16-17 - Gorakhpur

Lectures by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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710206SB-GORAKHPUR - February 6, 1971 - 65:11 Minutes

Devotee: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam lecture, morning, 6th January, 1971.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

yaṁ vai na gobhir manasā subhir vā

hṛdā girā vāsu-bhṛto vicakṣate

ātmānam antar-hṛdi santam ātmanāṁ

yac-cakṣur yathaivā kṛtayāntaḥ param

(SB 6.3.16)

Tasmād . . . tan-māyā-mohitatvād na jānanti ity uktam aviṣayatvāc ca tasya ity āha. So Śrīdhāra Swami give his comment that "Those who are," I mean to say, "involved with the material energy . . ." This material energy means the three modes of passion, ignorance and goodness. Tan-māyā-mohita. This is the moha. Moha means illusion.

Anyone who is contaminated by these three qualities of māyā, he is supposed to be involved in māyika . . . material existence. Tan-māyā-mohitatvād na jānanti: "And anyone who is involved with the material qualities of this external energy, they cannot understand what is God." It is not possible. Aviṣayatvāc ca. This is not their subject matter at all. The subject matter for them, different.

Therefore we see, they are becoming educated, scientists, philosophers, but they do not understand what is God. Avisayatvāc ca. It is not their subject matter. That I repeatedly say, that one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, it is . . . Bhagavad-gītā is not a subject matter for their study, what to speak of commenting upon it. He has no business to comment on Bhagavad-gītā, because it is not their subject matter. This should be very distinctly understood.

There is a Bengali parable, ādhāra vyapari yahāre khabola. Ādhāra vyapari, a merchant dealing in ginger, so he is taking information, "What about the shipping one . . . just like one cartload or one ship full of ginger?" So ādhāre vyapari means he has not very large quantity to sell. Ginger is taken very little quantity.

So ginger merchant, if he has got stock, say, one bag, it will take months together to sell it. And if he thinks that, "I will stock hundreds of bags," it is useless for him. That is not his subject. But one who sells rice or wheat, that is in great demand. That he can stock and talk of large shipment.

Similarly, those who are already engrossed in material qualities, the science of God is not their subject matter at all. So that is the test. Just like who shall be the guru? Whose subject matter is only Kṛṣṇa, or God, he shall be guru, not an amateur man, he is doing some other business, and in some pastime he makes a guru business. No, that is not their subject matter. The subject matter is different.

Therefore Śrīdhāra Mahārāja . . . Śrīdhāra Swami says, aviṣayatvāc ca tasya ity āha, gobhir indriyair na cittena: "Because the subject matter is not for them, however they may exercise their senses, gobhiḥ . . ." Go means indra. Simply by exercising . . . just like there are so many yogīs. They exercise their senses only—yama, niyama, prāṇāyāma. Senses. But it is not their subject matter to understand God. They may show some jugglery or some gymnastic, wonderful, or they may get some material perfection, animā . . . the eight kinds of perfection in yoga system . . . one can become very small.

Just like there was a trailiṅga svāmī in Benares. He was staying naked on the street, and the police objected, and he was put into police custody. He again came out. That means people became more devoted to him. But still . . . this is a perfection by the gymnastic of yoga process, but that does not mean he knows God. That does not mean.

There was another yogī in Benares. Anyone who would come to him, immediately in a pot he will present two rasagullā. And after eating two rasagullā, the man will be captivated, and big man, manager of bank and this and that, and they . . . they become captivated. He does not know, "What he has given me? Two rasagullā. Say, two annas, or four annas at most." So . . . but they become captivated, "Oh, here is a yogī. He can manufacture immediately."

In Calcutta I was passing in a street, Cornwallis Street, and there was some crowd, and I entered that crowd—long ago, when I was young man. So I saw that he was a Muhammadan . . . (indistinct) . . . he was giving everyone some pieces of grass, straw. So he gave me one. So I saw it is raisin, kismis. You see? So I immediate threw it away and went away. So some yogī can show. He'll press his beads, and there milk will come. So there are so many yogic fantasies. But that does not mean that he knows God. Or a great philosopher like Dr. Radhakrishnan, that does not mean he knows God.

Therefore Brahma-saṁhitā says, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyam purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca vedeṣu durlabha (Bs. 5.33). Simply by Vedic knowledge it is very difficult to understand what is Govinda. Vedeṣu durlabha adurlabha ātma-bhaktau: "But He is available from His pure devotee." So here the same thing is stated by Yamarāja. Yaṁ vai na gobhir manasāsubhir vā hṛdā girā vāsu-bhṛto vicakṣate.

So, ātmānaṁ jīvanam ātmānaṁ draṣṭāraṁ yam akṛtayaḥ rūpāṇi cakṣur yathā karma-bhūtaṁ na jānanti tataḥ param akṛtinaṁ prakāśakaṁ na hi pramata-pramāṇasya viṣaya iti. Bhāla. So our bhakti process is not to try to see God personally. Just like the karmīs, they challenge, "If we can see eye to eye, God?" No. That is not our process. Our process is different.

Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches us, āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu māṁ marma-hatāṁ karotu vā adarśanān (CC Antya 20.47). Every devotee likes to see, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches that "Even if You make me broken-hearted, not being seen for life or perpetually, it doesn't matter. Still, You are my worshipable Lord." That is pure devotee.

Just like there is a song, "My dear Lord, please appear before me, dancing with Your flute." This is not devotion. This is not devotion. People may think, "Oh, how great devotee he is, asking Kṛṣṇa to come before him, dancing." That means ordering Kṛṣṇa. A devotee does not order anything or ask anything from Kṛṣṇa, but he loves only. That is the pure love.

That is the teaching of Lord Caitanya. Āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām (CC Antya 20.47): "You either You embrace me or You trample down, You give me all kinds of miserable life and You break my heart, not being seen by me . . ." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's prayer in His ecstasy of Rādhā.

So that is wanted. So we should not try to see God. Then we'll be baffled. Sometimes if, trying, trying, if I baffled—I cannot see—then I'll conclude, "There is no God. If there was God, I prayed so much and He did not appear before me. Oh, this . . . it is all humbug." You see?

So pure devotion means anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), without any desire. Simply one desire, that "How I shall be able to satisfy Kṛṣṇa?" That registered . . . where is Mr. Singh? He was saying that: "I shall do my duty, and I do not want to know whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or not pleased." This is not bhakti. This is not bhakti. Bhakti means the bhakta's only business is to understand, "Whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased by my activity?" That is bhakta's business. But because they have no relationship with God, they are puzzled that "How I shall understand whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or not?" They are puzzled.

That answer is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ: "If you please the representative of Kṛṣṇa, guru, then He is pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat . . . otherwise you cannot understand whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or not. You can understand also, because if you follow the Kṛṣṇa's instruction . . . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).

If one is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and he has no other business than to serve Him, then he can understand that, "I am now . . . even if I do not understand whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or not, by the formula I can understand that because I am fully surrendered—I have no other business—then Kṛṣṇa must be pleased." That is the . . .

And practical. Kṛṣṇa appears in two ways. He appears as antaryāmi, the Supersoul within himself, within oneself, and He appears as the spiritual master, externally. Caitya-guru and dīkṣā-guru. Caitya-guru . . . as caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyone's heart. And His representative . . . in order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without.

The Caitanya-caritāmṛta therefore says that kṛṣṇera prakāśa, manifestation of Kṛṣṇa, a spiritual master. And Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasya aprasādād na gatiḥ kuto 'pi: "If I can satisfy my spiritual master, then I understand that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And if I cannot satisfy my spiritual master, then I have no other way to approach Kṛṣṇa." These songs we sing every day.

So my Guru Mahārāja used to say that, "Instead of seeing Kṛṣṇa, you serve so faithfully that Kṛṣṇa will see you." That should be the process. Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent. He can see you; He can understand you, what are doing. So we have to execute devotional service in such a faithful way that Kṛṣṇa will see us. Then you will be successful. "Don't try to see Kṛṣṇa. Try to become seen by Kṛṣṇa." That was my Guru Mahārāja's instruction. Cakṣur yathaiva kṛtayaiva antaḥ-param.

tasyātma-tantrasya harer ahīśituḥ

parasya māyādhipater mahātmanaḥ

(SB 6.3.17)

evaṁ bhūtaḥ parameśvaraḥ mad-anyad astīti

Now, Yamarāja says that, "I have got a master like that." The Yamarāja has anubhūti. Therefore he describes what is the nature, characteristics, of his master. Yamarāja also does not say that "I have seen my master." But he still accepts that there is a master. "I am not all in all." Never said . . . in these ślokas we do not find anywhere Yamarāja says that, "I have seen Him."

It is very common thing. Now the government is going on. Not that everyone has seen the president or the king, but still, the government is so nicely managed that everyone knows that there is an executive head. So there is no question of this villainy that, "There is no God," "I do not believe in God," "God is dead," or "Everyone is God." Not like that.

tasyātma-tantrasya harer ahīśituḥ

parasya māyādhipater mahātmanaḥ

prāyeṇa dūtā iha vai manoharāś

caranti tad-rūpa-guṇa-svabhāvāḥ

(SB 6.3.17)

Now, Yamarāja says that:

bhavaty evaṁ bhūta anyaṁ

parameśvara ye punar asmād

niduḥṣasya pāpinaṁ rakṣita-vāñchā

te ke tān āha tasyeti dvābhyām

So the Yamadūtas inquired from Yamarāja, "Whether there is another controller than yourself?" So that he has described that, "There is a supreme controller than myself."

Tasyeva rūpaṁ guṇaḥ prabhāvaḥ prabhāvāya svabhāvaṁ bhakta-vatsalyādi yeṣām. So that tasyātma-tantrasya harer ahīśituḥ parasya māyādhipater mahātmanaḥ, so he is informing that "There are Viṣṇudūtas also. They are . . ." Viṣṇudūta means devotees, the devotee of Lord Viṣṇu. "They are also . . ." Just, the Yamadūtas, they are also traveling everywhere to find out . . . not to find out.

Everyone is sinful. "Similarly, there are Viṣṇudūtas also." That is the information. "They are also seeing, inspecting what kinds of actions we are actually performing." Prāyeṇa dūta iha vai manoharaḥ. Because the Viṣṇudūtas came to take away Ajāmila, so they were surprised, that "Who these persons, the great personalities, were there?"

So now Yamarāja is explaining that, "These manohara, these beautiful personalities who appeared, they are Viṣṇudūtas. Just like you are Yamadūtas, similarly, they are Viṣṇudūtas." Prāyeṇa dūtā iha vai manoharāś caranti. Caranti: "They also travel all over the universe." And what is their qualities? Tad-rūpa-guṇa-svabhāvāḥ: "Exactly looking like Viṣṇu, four hands with śaṅkha-cakra-gadā-padma, tad-rūpa." This is called liberation of possessing the similar feature of the body as Lord Viṣṇu.

Tad-rūpa-guṇa-svabhāvāḥ. And their qualities are also the same. And svabhāvāḥ, and nature, character, is also the same. That is oneness. When one is liberated in his original, spiritual feature, he becomes equal, just like in svarūpa, in form; guṇa, in quality; and svabhāvāḥ, characteristics, exactly like Viṣṇu.

Prāyeṇa dūtā: "It is very difficult to recognize." Just like in this world also, if the president or the king comes in common dress, you cannot understand who is president, who is king and who is a common man. Similarly, in the Vaikuṇṭha world also the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha, they have got the same feature of the body, same qualities and same characteristic. This is described here. Try to understand.

(aside) What is that?

Devotee: I'm feeling a little chilly.

Prabhupāda: Prāyeṇa dūtā iha vai manoharāś caranti tad-rūpa-guṇa-svabhāvāḥ, bhūtāni viṣṇoḥ sura-pūjitāni: "These Viṣṇudūtas, they are not only worshipable by common men, but they are worshipable by the demigods." Sura-pūjitāni. Sura means the demigods; pūjitāni, "they are worshiped." Bhutāni viṣṇoḥ: "those who are associates of Lord Viṣṇu."

So there is no question of impersonalism. This oneness with God and the living entity, these are the oneness, that they attain the same quality, the same characteristic, the same feature of the body. That is oneness. Not that they have no individuality. God has got individuality and His devotees or the living entities, even though not devotees, nondevotees, everyone has got individuality.

That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that, "I, you and all these persons who have assembled here in the Battle of Kurukṣetra, they existed in the past, they are existing at the present moment, and they will continue to exist in the future." Now, where is the question of mixing together? They existed as they are existing now, and at the present moment they are existing as individual, and in the past, they also existed as individual, and the future, they will continue to exist as individual.

So there is no question of losing the individuality. That's a theory only. No living entity loses his individuality, even after liberation. They try to keep mixed up with others. Just like the sunshine is a combination of molecular parts, something shining. Is it not?

Similarly, brahma-jyotir is combination of the individual parts and parcels of God. But without individual activity they cannot stay in the brahma-jyotir for long. Because everyone wants some individual activity. Just like we are sitting together now. After some hour, every one of us will feel what is our individual . . . everyone will be engaged in his individual activity.

Therefore, according to Bhagavat-siddhānta, āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanti (SB 10.2.32). The individual soul who simply tries to merge into the effulgence, Brahman effulgence . . . that position is attained after many, many years' austerity and penances. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa. Kṛcchreṇa means with great trouble and difficulty one is elevated to that position, merging into the impersonal brahma-jyotir.

Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam. Paraṁ padam. That is called paraṁ padam. But again says, patanty adhaḥ: "But they still, again they are prone to fall down." Why they fall down? Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ: "Because they do not care for Your lotus feet."

That has been practically experienced. In our country many, many, very, very big svāmīs, they attain perfection and realize that he is Brahman. But after a time again comes down to this material field of worker, opening hospital, schools. So these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they say that the world is false. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. So if the world is false, then why they come down to open schools and colleges and hospitals? That means they could not stay in the Brahman atmosphere for want of activity.

Therefore this devotional service is Brahman activity. One can stay. Without this Brahman activity, even one is elevated to the Brahman position, he falls down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They are not very much inclined—declined practically—to accept this devotional service. The Māyāvādīs, they say that this devotional service, this arcana-śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23)—they take it as a means to merge into the Brahman effulgence. They do not understand that this is the perpetual engagement of a devotee. Nitya-yuktā upāsate (BG 9.14).

In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that devotees, they are eternally engaged in devotional service. Eternally means after liberation, not that after liberation the whole thing is changed. No. The process is so transcendental that the devotees, they are serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even when he is conditioned . . . a devotee is not conditioned. Even accepting he is conditioned, but his engagement in the liberation stage does not change. The same condition goes on, the same worshiping, his chanting.

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

(SB 7.5.23)

bhūtāni viṣṇoḥ sura-pūjitāni

durdarśa-liṅgāni mahādbhutāni

rakṣanti tad-bhaktimataḥ parebhyo

mattaś ca martyān atha sarvataś ca

(SB 6.3.18)

Very nice verse. The Yamarāja says that, "These bhutāni viṣṇoḥ, viṣṇu-bhutāni, the Vaiṣṇava, the Viṣṇudūtas, they are worshiped by the demigods. Anywhere they go, they are worshiped." They are worshipable, Vaiṣṇava. As God is worshipable, similarly, the Vaiṣṇava, or the God's servant, they are also worshipable. And Kṛṣṇa says, mad bhakta-pūjābhyadhikā (SB 11.19.21). So, "Anyone who worships My devotee, he renders devotional service better than by worshiping Me direct."

So therefore He says in another . . .

ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt

nāvamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyāsūyeta

sarva-deva-mayo guruḥ

(SB 11.17.27)

There is another version, that Kṛṣṇa says . . . these are stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam while He was talking with Uddhava, Eleventh Canto. Just like Kṛṣṇa had talks with Arjuna, which is known as Arjuna-gītā, similarly, He had talks with Uddhava, another devotee. That is known as Uddhava-gītā. So in that Uddhava-gītā these statements are there, that ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt nāvamanyeta karhicit: "Ācārya should be known as good as God."

That is confirmed in Viśvanātha Cakravartī . . . sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. He also refers to the śāstra, not that he is opining by his own intellect. No. That is the speciality of learned scholars and devotees. They should immediately give evidence from the śāstra. Viśvanātha Cakravartī said that "Guru is as good as God by the verdict of the śāstra." Sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ.

And Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt: "Ācārya should be known as good as Myself." Nāvamanyeta karhicit: "Never become disobedient to ācārya." Na martya buddhyāsūyeta: "Never be envious of the ācārya, considering him to be an ordinary person." Nāvamanyeta karhicit. Sarva-deva-mayo. By worshiping ācārya . . . and Bhagavad-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). These things are there.

So these, I mean to say, assistants and associates of Viṣṇu, Viṣṇudūta, it is stated, Yamarāja says . . . Yamarāja is mahājana, therefore we have to accept. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). The Yamarāja says that bhūtāni viṣṇoḥ sura-pūjitāni durdarśa-liṅgāni mahādbhūtāni. Durdarśa.

It is very difficult to find out them, because in our experience within this material world, perhaps only Brahmā has four hands and Viṣṇu has four hands and sometimes Lord Śiva has also four hands, because they are biggest of all the demigods. But ordinary living entities, hardly one can find out a person with four hands. Therefore it is said here, durdarśa liṅgāni: "They are very rarely to be seen."

But mahadbhūtāni: "They are wonderful." Mahādbhūtāni. Rakṣanti tad-bhaktimataḥ parebhyo. And what is their business? The business is rakṣanti tad-bhakta. "Their business is to give protection to the devotees of the Lord." Rakṣanti tad-bhakta mataḥ parebhyo. Just like Ajāmila was attacked by the Yamadūtas.

Immediately they came and protected. Parebhyo. Rakṣanti tad-bhaktimataḥ parebhyo mattaś ca martyān atha sarvataś ca: "And they give protection from my jurisdiction. I may be sometimes mistaken to go to a person who is completely a devotee. Therefore they are required. 'No, you cannot come here.' " These things are stated.

viṣṇu-bhūtāni bhūtyā durdarśāni

draṣṭum apy asāṅkhyāni rūpāṇi

yeṣāṁ tāni bhakti-mata viṣṇu-bhaktān

parebhyaḥ śatrubhyaḥ martyasya

There is no use to become envious of a devotee, because a devotee, a pure devotee, will always be protected by these Viṣṇudūtas as they have protected Ajamila. Parebhyo. Parebhyo, Śrīdhāra Swamijī's gives śatru, enemies. In this world, although a devotee is ajāta-śatru—he does not do anything which will create enemy—but the nature of the world is that they will become envious. Any person, he has done no wrong to you, but he is making progress—his friends and his neighbors will be envious: "Oh, this man is becoming so successful." So the nature of this world is envious, enviousness.

Therefore, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning it is said, nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2): "This is understandable by persons who are freed from this quality of enviousness." Here is a quality in the material world. Anyone who is here, he will be envious of his . . . para utkarṣa asahanam. They cannot tolerate that his friend or his brother is very much, I mean to say, advancing either material or spiritual. They cannot tolerate. This is the society.

Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that, "This is not the place for a gentleman to live," because surrounded by envious persons, especially to the devotees. Especially when a man becomes devoted to the Lord, he creates—he does not create, but the atmosphere is such—many enemies. Just like Prahlāda Maharaja. He was a five-years-old boy only, child; his father became enemy. Because the only disqualification Prahlāda Mahārāja had, that he was a great devotee. His father became enemy, what to speak of others?

Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, taror api sahiṣṇunā. You will have many enemies, many envious persons, when you become pure devotee, but you should tolerate. Taror api sahiṣṇunā. Be tolerant just like a tree and be humble just like a grass. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. Don't be afraid of your enemies, because Kṛṣṇa will protect you.

But in order to stop more misunderstanding, better become tolerant, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, that . . . envious persons, automatically . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time, Śrīvāsa. Śrīvāsa was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and his neighborers became enemies. They wanted to insult him in so many ways. These are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

So that is natural. But we should always remember that "Let there be enemies. Let there be envious persons. I will be protected by Kṛṣṇa and His associates." And even I am not so accustomed, so I should learn to tolerate.

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā . . .

(CC Antya 20.21, Śikṣāṣṭaka 3)

Kīrtanīyaḥ. If you want to make advancement in the chanting process, then you should be tolerant than the tree and humbler than the grass. And anyone who hasn't got any respect, give him all respect, "Oh, you are so wonderful," and go on with your business, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . ." (chuckles)

That's all. Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances) (pause)

Prabhupada: Oh ek genji udhar chorke aya. (One undervest was left there by mistake.)

Devotee: Aaya. (Brought it.)

Prabhupada: Aaya, achha . . . (indistinct) . . . aap udhar se aye the? (Brought it. Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . you are coming from there?)

Devotee: Hmm.

Prabhupada: Achha. (Okay.) So any other questions?

Devotee (1): The Viṣṇudūtas, they had spiritual bodies, spiritual forms. Are they traveling through all the planets, or only where there are devotees?

Prabhupāda: All the planets. Everywhere there are devotees. You are thinking that only in America there are devotees? (laughter)

Devotee (1): No, I'm speaking particularly of the four-armed form described as . . . particularly of those.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇudūtas are looking exactly like Viṣṇu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, don't the living entities on Brahmaloka have bodies like Lord Brahmā?

Prabhupāda: Not exactly. Brahmā is four-handed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they don't have . . .

Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you said that when a person changes original, spiritual form, just like the Viṣṇudūtas, they have their four-handed form. Does that mean that they will never rise up to the state of associating with Kṛṣṇa in two-handed form? What does it mean, "original form"?

Prabhupāda: Original form, two-handed.

Haṁsadūta: Two-handed.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: So that four-handed form is not complete perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: No. There is perfection everywhere in the spiritual world, but it is a question of variety, taste. When you take rasagullā, don't take kachorī, that does not mean kachorī is not perfect. It is a question of taste. Somebody likes kachorī, somebody likes rasagullā. Not that kachorī is inferior to rasagullā, rasagullā is inferior to kachorī.

Haṁsadūta: So that means if someone is situated in that svarūpa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is svarūpa. Everything is svarūpa.

Haṁsadūta: Ah . . . suppose someone is situated as Viṣṇudūta. He may change his taste.

Prabhupāda: Why he shall change it?

Haṁsadūta: Well, he may get a taste for associating with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: The change is taking place in this material world. There all tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us have a different taste of associating with Kṛṣṇa, and that will be realized when one is liberated.

Haṁsadūta: So that's fixed already?

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Kṛṣṇa. That is called svarūpa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family, we enjoy different rasas.

We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relation with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa . . . the whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

Haṁsadūta: I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. Maybe some gradation, but it is palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment, then I will get better rasas." No, that is not. Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Why don't you see?

Haṁsadūta: And Nectar of Devotion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Kṛṣṇa is the best."

Haṁsadūta: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Even the trees in Vṛndāvana, they want to serve Kṛṣṇa silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ānanda, everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Kṛṣṇa comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment: "Oh . . ."

Devotee: When Kṛṣṇa doesn't come, then they are feeling separation?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: When Kṛṣṇa doesn't come, they are feeling separation?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. That is another bliss, to feel separation from Kṛṣṇa. Everything, either you meet or you separate, the bliss is there. Crying for Kṛṣṇa is better bliss.

So as there are Yamadūtas—they are arresting all the sinful persons—similarly, Viṣṇudūtas, they are always protecting the devotees. (pause) Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). Therefore those who are devotees, they are not afraid of anything because they know confidently that "Kṛṣṇa is there."

That is one of the items of śaraṇāgati. Surrender means when . . . unless one is convinced that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection," so how he can surrender? There is no question of surrender. Avaśya rakṣibe kṛṣṇa vivaśa-pālana. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said to be firmly convinced, "Then Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection." Therefore surrender is perfect.

Ānukūlyasya saṅkalpaḥ prātikūlyaṁ vivarjanam. Surrender means one should simply accept favorable service to Kṛṣṇa and reject anything which is unfavorable, and then next is avaśya rakṣibe kṛṣṇa viśvasa-pālana (Śaraṇāgati): "And to be firmly convinced that, 'Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection.' " Therefore, instead of trying to protect myself, a devotee should always remain dependent on Kṛṣṇa. That is śaraṇāgati. And to consider oneself that "Now I am in the association of Kṛṣṇa," these are different items of śaraṇāgati.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the best contribution to the human society. There is no comparison with this movement, any other welfare activity of the whole world. There is no comparison. Can you suggest any better welfare activities than this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? "Here is another item which is better than Kṛṣṇa consciousness"? What is that? Who will suggest?

Haṁsadūta: Nobody.

Prabhupāda: No?

Haṁsadūta: No one.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Boliye . . . (indistinct) . . . aapko kuch suggest karna hai? (Tell me . . . (indistinct) . . . do you want to suggest anything?)

Guests: Nahi! (No.).

Prabhupada: Yashoda?

Guests: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There cannot be. As Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7), similarly . . . nanyāt: "There is no better personality or higher personality than Me,"

Kṛṣṇa says. Similarly, kṛṣṇa-bhakti also, in the . . . at the same position, there is no more higher activity than Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): Prabhupāda, Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇadūta is same. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇadūta is same thing, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa-svabhāva. It is stated there. But the same means . . . does not mean that Viṣṇu, the associate have forgotten Viṣṇu's position. No. Although everything is there, same, still the Viṣṇudūtas know that "Viṣṇu is master; we are servant." But there are many instances in higher official circles. Let's say a high-court.

All the justices are of the same caliber, but still, all the other justices except chief justice, they are considered subordinate. Is it not? Although their position, facilities, all the same, still, the chief justice position and the other judges' position is little different.

(pause) (aside) You are little bit late. We began at five-thirty. Yes. The class . . . we began our ārati at five, and after ārati we began class, five-thirty.

So along with our temple, we shall have to construct some residential quarter for the students. And the students will remain with us. There will be no charge for their fooding or lodging. They will remain as brahmacārī and go to their schools, colleges. Is that idea all right? Not only students; anyone who will remain with us, there is no charge for boarding and lodging. (pause)

Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa consciousness leads to kṛṣṇa-prema.

Prabhupāda: That is the highest perfection.

Guest (2): That is . . . when Your Divine Grace asked, I told that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the beginning. That leads to kṛṣṇa-prema." Then, naturally, kṛṣṇa-prema should be superior to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Not superior.

Guest (2): Because that is the beginning, and that is the end.

Prabhupāda: Just like the mango has got a different feature when it is not ripened, and the same mango, when it is ripened, it has got a different feature. That's all. The process is to the ripened stage. It is . . . but all the same, it is a mango. It's a mango.

Guest (2): That is what I thought of the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is no other thing than mango. Bhakti is always there, either in the perfectional stage or in the beginning stage. The same example: mango is mango, but unripened stage, it has got a different feature, and ripened stage has a different feature.

Devotee (2): Paripakur.

Prabhupāda: Paripakur.

Revatīnandana: But in the ripened stage it is more succulent.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes unripened stage also, it is very palatable. So many achaar. (laughter) You see? It is so nice, mango is so nice, either ripened or unripened, it is always good. And that goodness may be tasted by different types of men. But mango is always good. Mango is mango, phala ka rāja, "king of all fruits." So devotional service is king of all process of God realization. That is its position always, either ripened or unripe. It doesn't matter.

Revatīnandana: This mango you can taste both ways, both in the beginning and in the end.

Prabhupāda: That is maybe your taste, but others may . . . (laughter)

Revatīnandana: I mean if Kṛṣṇa consciousness leads to kṛṣṇa-prema, then it must, must be a different enjoyment, superior . . .

Prabhupāda: Generally kṛṣṇa-prema is the highest stage.

Guest (2): Is it right to say that kṛṣṇa-prema is the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Perfect is always. That is the highest stage. That we cannot relish. Just . . . all the rasas in relationship with Kṛṣṇa is perfect. But according to different devotees' taste . . . that I already told. Everyone says: "My relationship with Kṛṣṇa is the best."

Everyone thinks. But it is for the outsider to consider that "This stage, conjugal love, this is better than the Kṛṣṇa's relationship with His servants or with the trees and . . ." That is our calculation. But in the Kṛṣṇa field . . . that is called absolute. Every taste is as good than the other. That is oneness, absolute.

Haṁsadūta: So Prabhupāda, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Kṛṣṇa's friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass, and be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage.

Prabhupāda: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

Haṁsadūta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else.

Prabhupāda: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetuses come, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That's all. That means the actual relationship with Kṛṣṇa is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Kṛṣṇa's friends in Vṛndāvana. These are described here. Yes. Not directly. No.

You cannot say that, "I have become Sudāmā." No. You have to follow the footsteps of Sudāmā. "I have become Mother Yaśodā." No. You have to follow the footsteps of Mother Yaśodā. That is real position. And as soon as you say: "I am Yaśodā," "I am Su . . ." then it is as good as the Māyāvādīs say "I am God." You see? So dāsa-dāsānudāsa. That process should be followed.

Devotee (2): Dāsa-dāsānudāsa.

Haṁsadūta: Suppose someone is satisfied simply being related with the spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: That is everyone's business. Everyone's business. That is not a particular taste. That is the duty of all devotees.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are like Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-dūta. You are a devotee of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: I am not Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-dūta. My Guru Mahārāja is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa . . .

Revatīnandana: Well, we would say that you were.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. My Guru Mahārāja is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-dūta. I am simply trying to carry his order. That's all. I am not Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-dūta.

Revatīnandana: But we have become your followers.

Prabhupāda: That is your duty. Dāsānudāsa. That is the process.

Revatīnandana: Somebody else might become a follower of a devotee of Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: It is not that I am directly connected with Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. I am directly connected with my spiritual master, and my business is to carry out his order. That's all. If I can do that well, that is my purpose. That's all.

Revatīnandana: But if somebody else may become . . . a devotee of, say, a devotee of Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa, then is it to be understood that he, then, because he has become devotee of a follower of Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa, he may come to associate with Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not that. A devotee is not particular follower of Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa, not of Kṛṣṇa. One who is pure devotee, he knows both the line is as perfect. He may be, a spiritual master is devotee of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, but his disciple may be a devotee of Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa.

It does not hamper. It does not matter, because They are the same. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (Bs. 5.39). They are all one. When we say "Kṛṣṇa," He includes everyone—Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, everyone.

(pause) Hmm. So let us . . . (break) (end)