720424 - Lecture SB 02.09.01-4 - Tokyo

Lectures by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720424SB-TOKYO - April 24, 1972 - 50:29 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . gata-sammohas tyaktvodāste tadobhayam. So chant this verse, beginning from . . . practice.

Pradyumna: (leads chanting of verse)

śrī-śuka uvāca

ātma-māyām ṛte rājan

parasyānubhavātmanaḥ

na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ

svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā

(SB 2.9.1)

bahu-rūpa ivābhāti

māyayā bahu-rūpayā

ramamāṇo guṇeṣv asyā

mamāham iti manyate

(SB 2.9.2)

yarhi vāva mahimni sve

parasmin kāla-māyayoḥ

rameta gata-sammohas

tyaktvodāste tadobhayam

(SB 2.9.3)

ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-arthaṁ

yad āha bhagavān ṛtam

brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam

avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ

(SB 2.9.4)

Prabhupāda: Repeat this. Repeat this verse. (devotees continue repeating last verse, with Prabhupāda correcting)

Karandhara:

ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-arthaṁ

yad āha bhagavān ṛtam

brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam . . .

Prabhupāda: Brahmaṇe darśayan. Darśayan. Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ. Go on reading.

Karandhara: Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam.

(devotees continue chanting śloka with Prabhupāda correcting)

Prabhupāda: You try to follow the transcription, because you do not know devanāgarī alphabet. When there is chanting, you follow the transcription.

ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-arthaṁ

yad āha bhagavān ṛtam

brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam

avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ

(SB 2.9.4)

So read every verse. Practice it. Give everyone. (break) Purification means that one will be able to see God face to face. That is purification. Just like in the sky, as soon as the cloud is moved, dissipated, you can see the sun immediately. This is the process. God is everywhere, within and without. So why He is not seen? Because our senses are not perfect. God is everywhere. They say: "Oh, why you are going to temple? God is everywhere," as if he has seen God. These rascals say like that. "What is the use of going to temple? God is everywhere." Have you seen? No one has. You see? Is it not, sometimes they say?

Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: If God is everywhere, why not in the temple? These are the atheistic proposal. If God is everywhere, so why not in the temple? In the temple I can see God, at least. The form of God, it is being worshiped, offered prasādam. So there is a spiritual atmosphere. So why shall I not go to the temple?

So actually God is everywhere. That's a fact. But so long I am not purified, I have to see God as they are prescribed in the śāstra. Here the Deity, He is God, but because I have no power to see God, therefore I see that, "Oh, it is made of wood. It is made of metal." That is my imperfect senses. But God is there also. God is everywhere, so God is here also. Why you are talking of metal and wood? From reasoning, argument, if God is everywhere, why not He is in the metal or wood? In your eyes it is metal, but we see God. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as saw Jagannātha, He fainted. Therefore viśuddhy-artham. Ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-artham.

So we have to learn how to purify our senses. Then we can see God everywhere. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38), Brahmā-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita. When we develop love of God, prema añjana, that ointment . . . just like we apply some ointment to the eyes to make it clear—our vision becomes clearer—similarly, there is ointment which is called love of Godhead. If we develop that love of Godhead, so by that ointment, when our imperfect eyes will be cleansed, then we can see God. This is the process. Ātma-tattva.

So ātma-tattva viśuddhy-artham. Ātma-tattva. Yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So the beginning of purification is first of all to understand, "What I am? Am I this body or something else?" Ātma-tattva. If we can understand myself, "What I am," then I can understand God also. Or if I can understand God, then I can understand me also. Just like if you see the sun, you can see yourself also. In the darkness you cannot see yourself, neither the sun.

So that is called ātma-tattva. Light. At night, darkness, dense darkness, you cannot see anything. I am walking in the dark, but I cannot see my hands and legs, where I am going. I am afraid: "Whether I shall fall into some ditch?" This is my position. Therefore it has to be purified. Ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-arthaṁ yad āha bhagavān ṛtam: "Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality, as He says . . ." So therefore we have to cleanse ourself, viśuddhy-artha. In order to cleanse, we have to hear from Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is coming. Out of His causeless mercy He is coming to reveal Himself, Kṛṣṇa: "It is like this. I am like this. You are like this." Both things.

First, beginning, Kṛṣṇa said: "You are not this body." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca . . . (BG 2.11). "Arjuna, you are talking like a very learned man, but you do not know what you are—not this body. You are not this body. Why you are lamenting for this body, your body and your brother's body, your grandfather's body, your children's body? But you are not body."

Therefore, in the first chastisement, Kṛṣṇa was accepted as spiritual master. A spiritual master has the right to chastise. Father, spiritual master, they are advised to chastise. Putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet. So father and teacher is advised by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita that "You should always chastise your son and disciple. Chastise." Tāḍayet. Tāḍayet means "Simply chastise. Always find out mistake." Don't be angry, but it is the business of the teacher and the father simply to find out your mistake, not to find out your good things. Tāḍayen na tu lālayet. Lālayet means patting: "Oh, my dear son, my dear boy, you are so nice. You have done . . ." Sometimes it is done, but it is the business of the teacher and the father to chastise. Never recognize the disciple's business or son's business as very good. Then they will spoil. That is the injunction of Cāṇakya Muni.

Lālane bahavo doṣāḥ: "If you simply pat, then there will be so many faults." Lālane bahavo doṣāḥ. Doṣāḥ means faults. Tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ: "And if you chastise, oh, they will be very much qualified." Tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ, tasmāt: therefore, putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet, "Simply chastise. Don't pat." This is the injunction, moral injunction. So, so far we are concerned, when our spiritual master used to chastise, we took it as blessing. That was very nice. And he would chastise like anything. "Damn rascal," "foolish," "stupid," anything, all good words. (laughter)

One day it so happened . . . that was not my fault. My another old Godbrother was . . . Prabhupāda was speaking. So I was very much fond of hearing. That gentleman, he was a retired doctor. So he wanted to speak something. He should not have done so, but . . . just like . . . so naturally I also . . . and Prabhupāda saw it, and he became so angry. So he knew that my attention was drawn by him. He chastised him like anything. He was old man, actually almost like his age. So he was paying sixty rupees in those days per month. So he became so angry, that "Do you think that because you pay sixty rupees, you have purchased us? You can do anything and anything?" He said like that. Very strong word he used. "Do you think that I am speaking for others? You have learned everything? You are diverting your attention." So many ways, he was very, very angry. You see?

So this is nice, to chastise. Therefore, as soon as Kṛṣṇa was accepted as guru . . . śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7): "I become Your disciple." Because in the beginning there was friendly talks . . . so friendly talks cannot make any good advance. Talks must be between the spiritual master or teacher and the disciple. So immediately, first of all, He chastised. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11): "Arjuna, you are talking like a learned man, but you are a fool number one."

Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. That means, "If you had been actually paṇḍita, learned man, then you would not have lamented for this body." Gatāsūn. "The body is neither a subject matter for lamentation, either living condition or dead condition. It has no value." This is the instruction, Kṛṣṇa's word. But the modern civilization, they are giving all value to this body, all their philanthropic work, hospitalization and this, so many things. Just like our Mr. George Harrison, he raised how many millions dollars for . . .

Karandhara: Nine million. Nine million.

Prabhupāda: Nine million dollars, and, to the . . . this is going on. In the Bhagavad-gītā we don't find anywhere a single line that, "You raise fund for," I mean to say: "giving relief to the poor" or "to the suffering." Is there any instruction in Bhagavad-gītā? You have read. Can you find out? But these people, they have become more learned than Kṛṣṇa. In our country, Vivekananda: daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā.

The whole Ramakrishna Mission is collecting fund only on this rascal plea. One Swami Nikhilananda, he told me, "Now the Americans are questioning that, 'You are raising fund for feeding the poor, but when we go to India we see simply poor men. What you are doing with this money?' " Actually they are doing nothing. They are collecting money in the name of feeding the poor, and they are living just like royal style, you see, eating all, everything.

So ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-artha. So we should not be very much attached for the benefit of this body. We must purify. Ātmā, ātma-tattva . . . ātmā is sometimes . . . in Sanskrit language, ātmā is meant this body, the mind and the soul. So ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-artha: "In order to find out what is pure ātmā . . ." Now ātmā is covered with the subtle body and the gross body. So we should analyze whether this gross body is ātmā or the subtle body is ātmā.

So they do not know, the modern civilization. The karmīs, they are accepting this gross body as ātmā, the gross body as ātmā, or the subtle body. The jñānīs, they are accepting mind, intelligence as ātmā. But ātmā is above. Therefore we have to purify the idea of ātma-tattvam. Ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-artham. Ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-artham. Yad āha. So we have to hear from authorities, from Bhagavān. Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ. Because Brahmā underwent great tapasya for hundreds of years, so, being pleased upon Brahmā, Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa, explained to him this ātma-tattva.

So Kṛṣṇa is within. In the beginning of Bhāgavata, tene brahma hṛdā . . . (SB 1.1.1) Then . . . darśayan. When Brahmā saw the form of the Lord—not exactly outside, but from within. And He educated him from within. Tene brahma hṛdā. Hṛdā means through the heart He transmitted the knowledge, bhagavat-tattva. And after understanding the bhagavat-tattva instructed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he wrote this Brahmā-saṁhitā. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (Bs. 5.29). There are hundred chapters of Brahmā-saṁhitā. They are lost. Only the fifth chapter was found in a temple in a handwritten leaf. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu collected it, and He gave it to His disciple, that "This Brahmā-saṁhitā is the summary of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So you take . . ." So Brahmā learned this, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Bhagavān, from Bhagavān. So you have to learn also from Bhagavān.

So Bhagavān is teaching Himself to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa. And you try to understand as Arjuna understood. Then you also directly learn what is taught by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was accepted by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12): "You are Para-brahman. You are the Supreme Brahman." Paraṁ dhāma: "You are the rest of everything." Paraṁ dhāma. Pavitram is the supreme pure. Paramaṁ bhavān śāśvataṁ puruṣam: "You are puruṣam, enjoyer." So these things were accepted by Arjuna. So if we simply accept as Arjuna accepted, then we also learn what is Bhagavān.

(break) . . . also spiritual. Localized Paramātmā, that is also spiritual. And Bhagavān is . . . they are all spiritual, therefore all one. But according to my angle . . . ultimately Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead . . . but because I cannot see, sometimes I realize a impersonal Brahman or localized Paramātmā. But actually the Absolute Truth, absolute person, is Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nāsti (BG 7.7), Kṛṣṇa says: "There is no more superior truth above." So you realize the Absolute Truth in different stages: in the beginning as impersonal Brahman, impersonal Brahman. Just like you realize the sun as impersonal sunlight, then localized sun globe. But if you are able to enter into the sun globe, then you see the sun-god, Vivasvān. It is up to your power. But actually, from the person, sun-god, the light is coming. This is practical.

The sun-god . . . within the sun globe there is sun-god, Vivasvān. He is a person, Sūrya-nārāyaṇa. And there are persons also in that globe. They are living in the Sūryaloka. Similarly, there are person in the Candraloka. I do not know which Candraloka these people are going, they find no person there. But they say that one side is dark. Whether one side is dark for them, in that side there may be. Anyway . . .

So, yes. Then go on. "Generally . . ."

Pradyumna: "Generally people have many wrong conceptions about both of them. The wrong conception of the jīvātmā is to identify the material body with the pure soul. And the wrong conception of Paramātmā is to think Him on an equal level with the living entity. But both misconceptions can be removed by one stroke of bhakti-yoga, just as in the sunlight both the sun and the world and everything within the sunlight are properly seen."

"In the darkness no one can see the sun, nor himself, nor the world. But in the sunlight one can see the sun, himself and the world around him. Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī therefore says that for purification of both wrong conceptions, the Lord presented His eternal form before Brahmājī, being fully satisfied by Brahmā's nondeceptive vow of discharging bhakti-yoga."

Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). That is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "If you want to know Me, then you have to accept this bhakti-yoga. No other means will . . ." because without full surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, nobody can know Him. Even a very important man in this world, you cannot know him by challenge. But if you surrender, it is possible to know him. Then? (break)

Bhakti-yoga therefore requires little tapasya, not playthings. Tapasya, that, "We are addicted to so many sinful activities. We must give it up." That is tapasya. "We must observe fasting on Ekādaśī day, on Lord's birthday." These are tapasya. If we do not . . . "We must chant sixteen rounds. We must observe the rules and regulation." This is tapasya. Don't make God very cheap thing: "Oh, it is very cheap thing." No. It has been made very easy for the Kali-yuga people because they cannot undergo any kind of tapasya. There is simple tapasya—"Chant sixteen rounds. Don't take this. Don't do this, four items. Take prasādam. Don't take anything . . ." So nothing is stopped. A little regulated, that this much, if we do not do, then how we can expect to see God and understand God? Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1).

If simply we remain like hogs and cats and dogs, then how it is possible to realize God? Paraṁ pavitram. If I do not become pavitra myself, pure, how I can see the supreme pure? It is impossible. Tapasya must be there. But for this age the tapasya has been minimized. Brahmā is the most important person within this universe. He underwent tapasya for a hundred years. Then he could see God and realize God. You cannot go such tapasya, undergo such tapasya. That is not possible in this age.

He has simply asked, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, very kindly. He is God. He is giving His own prescription: harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21): "Simply you chant." Because in this age it is very difficult . . . every process . . . the yoga system, that is also tapasya. The jñāna system, that is also tapasya. Karma system also, that is also great tapasya. Karma means not working hard in the factory like cats and dogs. No, that is not karma. Karma means to perform the ritualistic ceremonies, big, big yajñas, sacrifices. That is karma. So where is your money? You cannot provide your food even for two meals.

That is the position. For two meals only, people are going . . . (break) . . . twenty miles. You see? Fifty miles, sixty miles, forty miles—that is common thing. Or they are sometimes coming from 120 miles in train. And I have seen in Canada, they are going by plane from Vancouver to Montreal or something like that, their daily business. Similarly, in your country also, there are many men coming daily Los Angeles, five hundred miles by plane. This is your civilization. For two meals only, you have to make so much tapasya—fifty miles, hundred miles, five hundred miles, go and come back.

There is a story that one gentleman, he was coming to Calcutta early in the morning because he has to go hundred miles. So to catch the first train at six o'clock, then he will reach at nine o'clock in city, then he can attend office at ten o'clock. So . . . and again, going back, the office hour is finished at five o'clock. He was to go to home at ten o'clock. But still, he will go for sleeping for six hours. The whole day and night is engaged for earning two meals.

So they will undergo so much tapasya only for two meals, which is obtained very easily by the cats and dogs. But they are not prepared to undergo any tapasya for understanding God. This is their position. For meals, the birds, bees, they are not going to office. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. Only the civilized form of, the so-called civilized men, they are undergoing so much trouble for their meals. But others, they are not going fifty miles. They have got ready food. They sit down on any tree. Oh, there are enough fruits. Little eating, finish their business. Or take the elephants also. They are eating so much. They have got also food. Therefore śāstra says that, "Food is already there."

So many people say: "Oh, so many people are dying, starving." And where is the man? Show me who is dying for starvation. These are all pleas. They won't take any tapasya for understanding, but they will work hard like asses, like hogs and dogs, for two meals. But we should consider that we are taking so much penances for simply filling our this hungry belly, appetite. Why not little tapasya for Kṛṣṇa, chanting sixteen rounds? But will . . . that is also very difficult. Then? Tapasya, penance in pure bhakti-yoga.

Pradyumna: "The form of the Lord, which was manifested before Brahmā . . ." (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . intelligence that our form we change, or we die, so Kṛṣṇa never dies. Kṛṣṇa never dies. The evidence of death is . . . just like in our past life we had some body and we died. We have got another body. Kṛṣṇa does not die means He does not change His body. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). If He would have died, then He could not recollect in His mind the incident which happened millions of years ago. He says, vivasvān, proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha.

When Arjuna inquired that, "You say that You instructed this Bhagavad-gītā, this science, to Vivasvān long, long, millions of years ago. How can I believe it?" therefore He said: "I remember it. You don't remember. Therefore I do not die; you die." This is it. One who can remember, he does not die. Just like I . . . so long I can remember of my childhood activities, boyhood activities, I have not died. Is it not? Although the body is gone. This is the evidence that Kṛṣṇa does not die. Try to understand this point. Death means forgetting everything. That is death. But if you can remember, that is not death. It is clear?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I change my body, but I remember that I was a child, I was a boy, I was playing like this, I was doing like this, my mother was chastising me like this. Therefore I am not dead. But the body is gone. So this is the distinction between death and life. If you can remember, then you have not died. And if you forget, that is death. But the ātmā is permanent, eternal.

So Kṛṣṇa does not die. Otherwise, how He could remember? This is the reason. You try to understand all this reasoning. You have to preach. This is the reason. Because Kṛṣṇa says that, "I remember everything," therefore Kṛṣṇa does not die. Is it established or not? Yes. You say . . . my personal example . . . because I remember all my childhood, boyhood activities, therefore I am not dead. Nobody says that, "You are dead man," although my body has changed. Because I can remember. And as soon as I shall forget, that is death.

Then? One heard and one spoke. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit. Parīkṣit Mahārāja sat down. He did not do anything. He simply heard about Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, activities. So śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe: "Simply by hearing, Parīkṣit attained perfection." Abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Vaiyāsaki. Vaiyāsaki means Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Kīrtane. He simply narrated. He also gained.

Therefore śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). There are nine different processes of bhakti-yoga. Any one of them you adopt, you become perfect, not that you have to adopt nine. If you can, it is very nice. So nine, eight, seven, six, five—if you adopt only one, you become . . . you don't anything. Simply hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from a realized soul, you will become perfect. So śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanam. If you simply worship the Deity in regulated form, you become perfect. This is arcanam. Śravaṇam.

So all the methods are there. You adopt any one of them; you become perfect. Simply you offer prayer—you become perfect. Vandanam. You simply work. You simply wash this temple and sweep this temple regularly with heart and soul—you become perfect. You don't require even to read. So dāsyam. Dāsyam means simply work as menial servant of Kṛṣṇa. Dāsyam. Sakhyam. Arjuna. Just like Arjuna: he made simply friendship with Kṛṣṇa. In friendship so many insulting words are used also. So:

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

(SB 7.5.23)

So any one of them you adopt, you become perfect. So the best thing is nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). If you hear Bhāgavata . . . this Bhāgavata is written for hearing, for hearing, discussing. Otherwise, why we are taking so much pain? So here it is said that "Both Śukadeva Gosvāmī and Parīkṣit Mahārāja attained perfection through the medium of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam."

So any questions?

Devotee (1): You said that a person progresses through the three levels of God realization from Brahman realization. Is that true also for a Vaiṣṇava? Does he first attain Brahman realization and then Paramātmā, or does he . . .

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava, immediately given lift to the Supreme Person. And because he understands Supreme Person, automatically he understands what is Paramātmā and what is Brahman. Others, they go step by step, but Vaiṣṇava is given immediate lift. Just like somebody is earning money, ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty dollars, and he is thinking of accumulating money, 100,000 dollars.

So if somebody gives him immediately 100,000 dollars, "Take this," then ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty dollars, hundred dollars, thousand dollars are all in. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything.

Then Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā: "The impersonal Brahman is resting upon Me." So you immediately understand what is impersonal Brahman. Yasya prabhā (Bs. 5.40): "It is the effulgence of Kṛṣṇa's body." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). You understand, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa resides in everyone's heart as Paramātmā." So immediately understand what is Paramātmā. Immediately understand what is Brahman.

Devotee (1): Because it is a gradual process . . .

Prabhupāda: No, gradual process for the others, not for the devotee. Devotee is given immediately, and that also in a simple way: in His form of name, nāma-rūpe. You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So devotee is privileged so much, especially in this age that, "You take God, the Supreme Absolute Truth, by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." If you do it properly, then everything is done. You are given the thing immediately, but it may take some time. That is gradual. That is another thing. And for others, those who are trying to know the Absolute Truth by their own effort, for them, first realization is Brahman, then next realization is Paramātmā. And if they can surpass these two realizations, then, some day, they may become fortunate to understand what is the Supreme Person. (break)

Cintāmaṇi: . . . can't we remember, like when we were in the womb of our mother? We can remember some things, like when we were children, but we have no memory. When we were . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Karandhara: Why aren't we able to recall when we were in the womb?

Prabhupāda: Room?

Karandhara: Womb. The womb of the mother.

Prabhupāda: What is to be done in the mother's womb? What is to be done? What is the question? I cannot understand.

Karandhara: She wants to know why we can't remember that; why I can't remember when I was in the womb.

Prabhupāda: You cannot remember so many things.

Cintāmaṇi: But you said that when we change bodies we forget everything, that after death that . . . I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Change bodies . . . just like you have changed your body from the body of the womb, and at the present moment . . . but you don't remember all the incidences that have happened. So sometimes we remember, sometimes we do not remember, like that. But generally, if we . . .

We remember during lifetime, but we forget also. Even if we forget, that does not mean I am dead. Forgetfulness is explained: māyā. We forget Kṛṣṇa. We forget that, "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa" by forgetfulness. That is explained. What is that? Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan (SB 2.9.1). Ātma-māyā. It is a illusion. That forgetful . . .

Actually there is no forgetfulness. I should not forget, but because I am illusioned, therefore I forget. Because . . . "I forget" means I am illusioned. Ātma-māyā. Influenced by the modes of material . . . the one who is most influenced by the modes of material nature, they forget. Just like you are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, but others, they are not worshiping. They are to be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means . . .

It does not mean they are actually separate from Kṛṣṇa. But they have to be awakened. Just like man is not dead; he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyāya. I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, "Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there."

So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that's all. Actually we don't forget. It is temporary. Ātma-māyām ṛte. It is . . . only it is action of God's external energy. Because I wanted to forget Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy.

Have some kīrtana. (kīrtana) (end)