721118 - Lecture BG 02.13 - Hyderabad

Lectures by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

721118BG-HYDERABAD - November 18, 1972 - 44:31 Minutes

Pradyumna: Chapter Two, text number 13.

dehino 'smin

Prabhupāda: Page number. Give them page number.

Pradyumna:

dehino 'smin

Page number 88.

Devotee: 188?

Pradyumna: Eighty-eight.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Give me one.

Pradyumna: (break)

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) Spectacle? Spectacle?

Pradyumna:

. . . tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Prabhupāda:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

The Second Chapter is the summary study of the Bhagavad-gītā. The First Chapter is the preparatory study of Bhagavad-gītā, and the Second Chapter is the summary study of the contents of Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā means the song sung by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavata. From the word bhagavata, we speak Bhagavān. Bhagavān, here, in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find everywhere: śrī bhagavān uvāca.

So it is the science of understanding God. Yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Jñānaṁ te pravakṣyāmi yad vijñāna-samanvitam. It is a vijñāna. Vijñāna means science. As everything is understood thoroughly through a scientific process, similarly, if you want to know the science of God, then you have to adopt the process by which one can understand God.

That process is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He says, "If anyone wants to understand Me, then he has to take the process of devotional service," not by the speculative process or by fruitive activities or by yogic process, mystic yogic process. It is clearly stated, not only in Bhagavad-gītā, in all other Vedic scripture.

athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-

prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi

jānāti tattvaṁ bhagavan-mahimno

na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan

(SB 10.14.29)

One can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by His mercy only.

athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-

prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi

Anyone who has received a small particle of the prasādam, mercy, of the Lord, he can understand the Lord.

Nobody can understand the Lord perfectly. It is not possible, because the Lord is unlimited. We have got our senses very limited. Our senses are not only limited, but also imperfect. We commit illusion. We try to cheat. So many defects are there. Therefore simply by exercising our senses it is not possible to understand God.

So to know God, "God is very good. God is great," that is another thing. The science of God . . . just like Bhagavad-gītā, by studying Bhagavad-gītā, we know not only "God is great," but we see what kind of God He is, what is His form. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. We have heard in the śāstras that:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

Now that īśvara, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha, how He appears sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha? Those who are present, of course, they saw the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha, but because not all of them were devotees, they could not understand Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Because He appeared just like a human being, so mūḍhas . . . mūḍhas means less intelligent or, in plain word, asses. Mūḍha means ass.

So this class of men could not understand Kṛṣṇa, that He's the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the defect of the mūḍhas. They may be very great scholar, academic scholar, but in the matter of understanding God, they're mūḍhas, asses. Why? Māyayā apahṛta-jñānā āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15).

At the present moment, people are mostly āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ. Āsuri, āsuri bhāva means to defy God, "There is no God," "God is dead," "I am God," "You are God," "So many Gods are loitering in the street. Why you are finding out God?" These are so many statements. So God has become so cheap. There are so many incarnations of God, especially in India. It is a breeding ground of Gods, so many. So that is, means, they do not know what is God. Mūḍha. They think God is so cheap thing.

But from the śāstra we understand, from Bhagavad-gītā we understand . . . when Kṛṣṇa was asked by Arjuna, "How You are controlling the whole cosmology, Your vibhūti, Your power, energy?" so Kṛṣṇa explained, and He, at last He concluded:

athavā bahunaitena

kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna

viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam

ekāṁśena sthito jagat

(BG 10.42)

"The whole cosmology, material world, is just sustained by My partial manifestation of energy." Ekāṁśena.

This material cosmology, material manifestation, is one-fourth demonstration of God's energy. The three-fourth manifestation of His energy is the spiritual world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). There is another nature, which is spiritual nature, para, superior. The spiritual nature is described as parā. Parā means beyond this aparā.

There are two energies working: material nature and spiritual nature. Material nature, it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). These eight types of material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence and ego—these are material nature. Bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā. They are separated energies. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Beyond this . . . these are inferior, aparā. And beyond this aparā-prakṛti, there is another, superior prakṛti. What is that? Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity.

So living entity, living being, is energy of the Supreme Lord. Energy. Just like the sun and the sunshine. Sunshine is the energy of the sun globe. Similarly, we living entities, we are also energies of the Supreme Lord. What is this sunshine? It is a combination of a very small shining particles, molecular. That is sunshine. It looks like one homogeneous thing, but they are small particles. That is scientific understanding.

Similarly, we are also a small particle of the Supreme Lord. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We are a small particle. How much small? What is the magnitude? That is also described in the śāstra:

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya

satadhā kalpitasya ca

jīvo bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ

sa anantāya kalpate

(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9)

There is dimension of the living entity—one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.

So it is very difficult with our these material eyes. We are very much proud of our eyes. But here is the indication from the śāstra, the length and breadth of the living soul. Now you find out with your eyes, your microscope. That is not possible. Because they cannot find out, they say nirākāra. Nirākāra, in one sense, it can be supported that we cannot ascertain the forms of the soul. And what . . . how we can ascertain the form of the Lord? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān. So spiritual education means, spiritual enlightenment means, first of all, we must try to understand the jīva—because jīva is the small particle of the Lord—so that we can understand the quality of the Lord. Just like if you test a small particle of gold, then you can understand the composition of gold. If you test a little drop of water from the ocean, you can analyze the chemical composition of the sea. Similarly, if you can analyze the characteristics of the living entity, then you can at least understand what is God, what is the characteristics of God.

Therefore the beginning of spiritual education is to understand one's self, the self-realization. How to realize self? We have to take knowledge from others. Knowledge means . . . to acquire knowledge, to learn from the teacher. So here is the supreme teacher, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme teacher by everyone, by all the great sages formerly, like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala, Asita. All other great sages. And recently, in the modern age, by our ācāryas, Śrī Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānuja, yes, Śaṅkarācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī. All these great sages, great ācāryas, they came from your South India. So you are fortunate in that sense.

So we have to follow the ācāryas. All these ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. All these ācāryas. And later, lately, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years ago, He also accepted that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the acceptance in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Similarly, Lord Brahmā also accepted Kṛṣṇa:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

So we have got so many evidences. So we have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no doubt about it. But why people do not accept? Why are so many big, big scholars and big, big scientist, why they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, how these people do not accept. The statement is there:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Those who are duṣkṛtina, sinful, duṣkṛtina . . . kṛti means meritorious, and du means . . . means miscreants, meritorious for mischief-making. We . . . everyone has got merit. The mischief-maker, he has also got merit, but one who uses his merit for mischief-making . . . just like a great rogue, a thief. When he steals, he requires brain. So he's applying his brain, how to steal tactfully, how to become a great rogue tactfully, how to become a smuggler. They require also brain. So the brain is being misused for mischievous activities. They are called miscreants, duṣkṛtina.

So those who are duṣkṛtina . . . na māṁ prapadyante, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). One class is duṣkṛtina and the other class is mūḍha. Mūḍha means less intelligence or no intelligence. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. And narādhama means the lowest of the mankind. And māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ, those whose knowledge have been taken by māyā, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. These classes of men do not surrender unto Kṛṣṇa.

We are not manufacturing these words. These words are in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we study Bhagavad-gītā, we have to accept the statements, Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā means the speeches which is delivered, or the song which is sung, by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to preach all over the world that kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). You are searching after God. You are taxing your brain so much. But in spite of taxing your brain, you say sometimes that, "There is no God," or "God is dead," or "Everyone is God," and so on, so on. But our proposition is that why you are taxing your brain?

Here is God. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa—by authorities, by Vedic version, by His activities. If we read life of Kṛṣṇa, we can see that He's Kṛṣṇa, God, from the very beginning of His birth. God is not manufactured by some mystic power. God is God, and dog is dog. A dog cannot become God; God cannot become dog. That is the difference.

So Kṛṣṇa was God from the very beginning. As soon as Kṛṣṇa took birth, He appeared in four-handed viṣṇu-mūrti. But when He was prayed by His mother to become an ordinary child, He became an ordinary child with two hands. So that is God, from the very beginning.

Not that by attaining some mystic power one can become God. You can have some power, godly . . . you have already power. Because we are, every one of us is the part and parcel of God. Therefore godly qualities are there. But you cannot become cent percent God. That is not possible. That is not possible.

There, they . . . they have been analyzed. All the demigods and living entities, they have been analyzed by great, stalwart people, and it has been found that Kṛṣṇa is cent percent God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28).

All others . . . there are many other gods. Then gods means not the Supreme God. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. We are speaking of the paramaḥ īśvaraḥ, or Parameśvara. There are two words: īśvara, parameśvara; ātmā, paramātmā. That param is God. We are Brahman; Para-brahman. So Para-brahman, Paramātmā, Parameśvara, all these are applicable to Kṛṣṇa.

Just like Arjuna, after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, he admitted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam (BG 10.12). That is the position of Kṛṣṇa. Ādi-puruṣam. Govindam ādi-puruṣam. Kṛṣṇa also says, in the Bhagavad-gītā, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Devānām, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara . . . then after Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara, there are other demigods—Indra, Candra, Varuṇa, so many.

So Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. He's the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "Everything emanates from Me." In the Vedānta-sūtra also the Absolute Truth is described as janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything emanates.

So here is Kṛṣṇa—from śāstric evidences, by His opulences, by His power . . . because Bhagavān means full of six opulences. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). He must be the richest. He must be the strongest. He must be the most famous. He must be the most beautiful. He must be the great renouncer. In this way, that is the definition of God.

So that definition is confirmed by Lord Brahmā: īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara means controller. Controller . . . unless one is powerful, how he can control? So every one of us is little . . . a small controller. Somebody controls in his office. Somebody controls in his family life. Somebody controls a few factories. There are controller. But nobody can say that "I am the supreme controller." That is not possible. The supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to link up our connection with the supreme controller. We do not wish to become the controller. We want to be controlled—but by the supreme controller, not by others. That is our proposition. Just like generally, one who is in service, he hankers after government service. Because it is natural conclusion that, "If I have to serve somebody, why a petty merchant? Why not take government service?"

So that is our proposition, that we have to serve. We cannot do but serve, any one of us. That is our constitutional position. Any one of us, we are sitting here, we are servant. Every one of us is servant. So our proposition is that you are servant in any case. Why not become servant of God? That is our proposition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

So kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ. We are servant of our senses, kāma-krodha-lobha-moha-mātsarya, all these. By . . . dictated by our lusty desires, we do anything which is abominable. Teṣāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ. So we are servant, everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. (CC Madhya 20.108-109)

Our real, constitutional position is that we are eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa. That is our position. But in this material condition of life, every one of us trying to become the master. That is the struggle for existence. Everyone is trying, "I shall become the master. I shall become the Supreme." But our position is servant.

So this is called illusion. I am not master, I am servant. But I am trying to become master artificially. That is struggle for existence. And mukti means, liberation means, when you give up this wrong idea that, "I am master" and try to become the servant of the Supreme.

That is called liberation. Liberation does not mean that after liberation we'll have a big, gigantic form or so many hands, so many legs. Liberation means to become liberated from the wrong consciousness. That is liberation. The wrong consciousness is that, "I am master."

So we have to change this consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. One has to understand thoroughly that he's not master, he's servant. He's completely dependent on the supreme will. If we do not surrender unto the supreme will, then we have to surrender unto the will of māyā. We have to remain a servant.

If we do . . . reject service, or servitude of the Supreme Lord, then we have to become the servant of the senses. That is māyā. Actually, that is going on. The whole world is serving different types of senses. Senses are one, the same, but they have got different desires. So they are servant of different desires.

Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is . . . it is not manufactured by us. We get it from Bhagavad-gītā: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give up all these nonsense desires. You surrender unto Me." That is the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. We are dictated by different types of desires, which is dictated by māyā, and we want to become master falsely. This is called illusion. This is called māyā. Actually, you are not master. How we can become master?

Because we may be very scientifically advanced, we may manufacture very wonderful machine and weapon, but after all, we are subjected to the rules of māyā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You cannot get out of these four principles of māyā's machinery, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Therefore the sane man, who is actually learned, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Actually when one becomes wise, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. Otherwise, who is Kṛṣṇa? "I am as good as Kṛṣṇa. I am God." That is māyā. That is not actually knowledge.

In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They are thinking that they have become liberated, become Nārāyaṇa, or God. Māninaḥ. They are thinking like that. Actually, they are not, because they're subjected to the rules of the material nature. They cannot get out of these clutches. Who can get out of these clutches? Mām eva ye prapadyante. Kṛṣṇa says: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me . . ."

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

(BG 7.14)

So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very pious movement, the most glorious welfare activities. And we are preaching this movement all over the world, just to place Kṛṣṇa . . . our only ambition is that to place Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our proposition. We don't want to become Kṛṣṇa, but we want to become the most obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is our proposition.

So we invite everyone, from all parts of the world, and they are coming, they are joining. So in India Kṛṣṇa appeared. India has got a special advantage to understand Kṛṣṇa, and the Indians neglect it. That's a great misfortune. But we request everyone to join this movement, study the philosophy and become happy. That is our proposition.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Indian man (1): . . . gavad-gītā that the ātmā and jīvātmā is the same vision, and Brahman or Para-brahman is the same. And in knowledge of soul, the ātmā is the part and parcel of the Paramātmā, that is the Supreme Lord. And this contradiction in preaching, that how the ātmā and Paramātmā is both one?

Containing both, if the ātmā is part and parcel of the Paramātmā, and when they . . . the ātmā is the great and Paramātmā is different. Because there is really contradiction in the understanding . . . (indistinct) . . . may accept what the Vedas say and what Bhagavad-gītā says. Is there any difference between the Vedas and Bhagavad-gītā? Are we following Vedas or are we following Bhagavad-gītā? Because the Bhagavad-gītā is only song of Lord Kṛṣṇa; the Vedas are the pure knowledge of Para-brahman.

Prabhupāda: So why you are going away? You hear. You hear. Vedas . . . the . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15): "All the Vedas and Vedāntas, they are meant for understanding Kṛṣṇa." If by studying Vedas and Vedānta you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). It is simply labor. That is the adjustment of Bhagavad-gītā and all other Vedic literature. Vedas means . . . Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta.

So ultimate knowledge is to know God. You may not accept Kṛṣṇa, although all the ācāryas . . . I have already mentioned. Even Śaṅkarācārya, he also accept Kṛṣṇa: sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa. So the Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they have all accepted Kṛṣṇa: the ultimate knowledge of Vedic understanding. Many ācāryas, they have written notes on Vedānta, targeting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So we have to follow the footprints of the great stalwart ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). If we follow the footprints of the ācāryas, then we find there is no distinction between Vedānta and Bhagavad-gītā. Vedānta, you might be referring to the Vedānta-sūtra of Śaṅkarācārya, but all the ācāryas, they have written notes on Vedānta.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the original comment on Vedānta. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins with the Vedānta-sūtra: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So Vedānta does not mean godlessness. Vedānta means to know God. That is real study of Vedānta.

Śyāmasundara: He wanted to know what is the difference between Paramātmā and ātmā.

Prabhupāda: Paramātmā and ātmā, it is not very difficult to know. Just like you are father, and you have got many children at home. So they, because they are children, they are, I mean to say, as ingredients. You and your children are the same, but still, you are superior, and the children are dependent. Your children are not different from you, but still, you are superior and they are inferior, or junior. So qualitatively one, but quantitatively different.

So quantitatively different—ātmā, Paramātmā, and qualitatively one—ātmā is spirit, Paramātmā is spirit. It is called acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, simultaneously one and different. One in quality, different in quantity. You can create. You are also qualitatively one with God. You have got creative power.

Just like we are creating this flying machine, sputniks. That is also flying in the sky. And the Paramātmā has created the millions of planets floating in the sky. So you have got the creative power, but you cannot create like that, Paramātmā. That is the difference. Can you?

Indian man (1): My question was very simple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The answer is also very simple. Paramātmā is great; you are small. That's all.

Indian man (1): But whether the, our ātmā is the part and parcel of the ātmā, Paramātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Paramātmā is entirely different from the ātmā and . . .

Prabhupāda: That I will explain. In quality, you are one. Because a particle of gold is also gold. But the gold mine is not equal to the gold earring. That is mistake.

Indian man (1): They say ātmā is the Paramātmā.

Various Indian men: Not, not, the . . . not the whole.

Prabhupāda: Not the . . . one is great, another is small. That is the difference. Quality is the same.

Indian man (2): That means Paramātmā and ātmā . . .

Prabhupāda: Quality same.

Indian man (2): Quality same

Prabhupāda: Quantity different.

Indian man (2): But the ātmā, it is functioning in the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): Is, according to the Paramātmā, it is entirely different from the Paramātmā.

Prabhupāda: According to the Paramātmā.

Indian man (2): Every, our action is according to the Paramātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): So why do you abuse one person to other person?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): Why a person . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Indian man (2): . . . to abuse other person, he says many things . . .

Prabhupāda: But you should remember that you are in quality Paramātmā. So Paramātmā has got supreme independence, you have got little independence also. You, when you misuse that little independence, you create havoc.

Indian man (3): Who is responsible for the creation of this . . .?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (3): Who is responsible for the creation of this material . . .?

Prabhupāda: Well, responsible . . . just like father creates children. But if he becomes a thief, does it . . . does it mean the father is responsible? What is your idea?

Indian man (3): The children.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (3): The children . . . but He's the big father.

Prabhupāda: Father creates children, but a child becomes a rogue. Does it mean the father creates a rogue?

Indian man (3): No, the thievery is on account of bad . . .

Prabhupāda: That is, that is the . . . kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). You are independent. You can associate with different qualities of nature, and then your character is formed. That is your independence.

Here, God's instruction is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). You do not abide by that. You create your own independence; therefore you suffer. Father says, "My dear boy, do like this. You'll be happy." But he does in a different way. Who is responsible, the father or the son?

Indian man (3): Supposing . . . if independence is equal in . . .

Prabhupāda: If you, if you work according to the instruction of God, then you'll be happy. That is our proposition.

Indian man (3): No, my question is . . . (indistinct) . . . difference between the service of the human being and the service of God.

Prabhupāda: Just like if you water on the leaf and if you water on the root, which is better?

Indian man (3): The root.

Prabhupāda: That's it. But if you water the leaf, means you waste your time. Because by watering the leaf, you cannot make the tree living. Similarly, the śāstra says that water on the root.

yathā taror mūla-niṣecanena

tṛpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopaśākhāḥ

(SB 4.31.14)

If you water the root, automatically the branches, the twigs, the leaves, they become invigorated. But if you water the leaf, you simply you think that you are doing service, but you are doing nothing.

Indian men: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)