760623 - Conversation - New Vrindaban, USA

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

760623GC-NEW VRINDAVAN - June 23, 1976 - 69.26 Minutes

(Garden Conversation)

Prabhupāda: . . .production of it's external. Bahir-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun, there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and the gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction—manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction.

In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro (SB 1.5.20). This viśva, the virāṭ-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is . . . So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety; only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately, because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

(BG 9.4)

Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God . . . When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material.

Devotee (1): In the Seventh Canto, the second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge, though, of education and self-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that.

Prabhupāda: Anything external is material.

Devotee (1): Self-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items.

Prabhupāda: Yes, self-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization.

Devotee (2): Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahmeti.

Prabhupāda: Different stages of self-realization.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Today there is no wind at all.

Kulādri: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activity is spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual . . . Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say, "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm?

Kulādri: Well they say the chemicals again become . . .

Prabhupāda: That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa.

Kulādri: Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy.

Kulādri: So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kulādri: They can notice the change in the atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: That is real atmosphere. Sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to stay in the original form.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That . . . is there spirit in the form of a tree?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul?

Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? (to devotees) Discuss.

Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form.

Prabhupāda: So?

Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration, then.

Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form?

Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not . . . Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms; everything is spiritual. So what do you think?

Devotee (2): So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual, the Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs—they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty?

Pradyumna: Does that form ever change? That form changes also?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa is young, and then He's a little older.

Prabhupāda: Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya.

Kulādri: That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya?

Prabhupāda: That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pradyumna: Says in the material world when we try to enjoy, we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa, we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pradyumna: He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world?

Prabhupāda: Serve Kṛṣṇa.

Pradyumna: It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't . . . we're not really becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developing. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point.

Devotee (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet . . . we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not . . . we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy—sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste.

Kulādri: But the patient must be intelligent to keep . . . Even though he does not want . . .

Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal, fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's direction. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real . . . But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital, and number of hospitals increase—they think it is advancement. This is their idea.

So even the Christian, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; we have got hospitals and treat him, and he'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. So other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They have no hospital, they have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma-phala. Hmm? The result of fruitive activities, they do not accept. But you have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse.

So kriyā-karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you act for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others.

(long pause)

Prabhupāda: So you go on reading.

Pradyumna:

sa niścayena yoktavyo

yogo 'nirviṇṇa-cetasā

saṅkalpa-prabhavān kāmāṁs

tyaktvā sarvān aśeṣataḥ

manasaivendriya-grāmaṁ

viniyamya samantataḥ

(BG 6.24)

Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind."

Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says:

utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt

tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt

saṅga-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ

ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati

(Upadeśāmṛta 3)

'The process of bhakti-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves."

Prabhupāda: Now, questions?

Pradyumna: Any questions?

Devotee (1): So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely backwards?

Prabhupāda: Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this make-show that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination, that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure.

Devotee (2): Can one develop determination gradually?

Prabhupāda: Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not.

Devotee (2): When we make that promise . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you should not fall down. That is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation?

Devotee (2): Sometimes this weakness seems to be . . .

Prabhupāda: Weakness there . . . You should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it.

Kulādri: This promise is the minimum determination.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Kulādri: This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase.

Prabhupāda: Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is a verse,

śraddhā-śabde-viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya,

kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya

(CC Madhya 22.62)

(to Pradyumna) Explain it. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva-karma, kṛta, haya.

Pradyumna: The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very . . . sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm . . .

Prabhupāda: Faith. Niścaya means conviction.

Pradyumna: Conviction. Kṛṣṇe . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhakti kaile.

Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta-karma.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-karma kṛta haya.

Pradyumna: Sarva-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else . . . one has no obligations to the material world.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say, veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duties. But if you take only one occupational duty—to serve Kṛṣṇa—all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds."

Kulādri: Anartha-nivṛtti?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Kulādri: Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away.

Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (CC Madhya 23.14). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore they are called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat? . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall forego," immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty.

So on this whole principle this whole world is merged into sinful activities. That is called unnecessary. That is material position—unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And the leaders encouraging: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Hmm? What is . . .? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. This is anartha: unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. This is called anartha: unnecessarily creating disturbance. Anartha. . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all anartha will be finished. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method. So why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children.

So that requires training, determination. So śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure—they are astonished: is that pleasure? Phu! (makes spitting sound) Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma . . . (Yāmunācārya). That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8). That requires determination. (aside) Where did you go, to take bath?

Pālikā: This house just across.

Prabhupāda: There is water? Well? No.

Pālikā: There are barrels there, filling them daily.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Why not well? Have a big well?

Kulādri: They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive?

Kulādri: It's expensive.

Prabhupāda: It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube-well? But there are so many creeks.

Kulādri: We have what is called a spring house. It's pure spring water. It's caught in reservoir.

Prabhupāda: Where is it?

Kulādri: At the other farm we have, as well as tube-well.

Prabhupāda: Water must be.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life . . .

Prabhupāda: You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole, and collect the snow, and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not?

Kulādri: We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now.

Prabhupāda: Then? Why don't you do it?

Kulādri: You saw the Rādhā-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all, anartha-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa . . . when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti. That is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī.

Pradyumna: Ah, siddha-praṇālī, siddha-deha.

Prabhupāda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women—svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa.

Devotee (1): So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death.

Prabhupāda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking, utopian? First business is anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these . . . these are the stages. There is . . . up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Read.

Pradyumna:

śanaiḥ śanair uparamed

buddhyā dhṛti-gṛhītayā

ātma-saṁsthaṁ manaḥ kṛtvā

na kiñcid api cintayet

(BG 6.25)

Prabhupāda: This is practice.

Pradyumna: "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else."

Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows.

Kulādri: They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the . . . where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulāvana, for Rādhā-Vṛndāvana-candra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulāvana they have to be in pastures.

Prabhupāda: Last time I saw some cows here.

Kulādri: Yes, this pasture.

Prabhupāda: Still there?

Kulādri: No.

Devotee (4): This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while. It must grow back. They are on another pasture.

Kulādri: Today we had three calves born, all female heifers.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.

Devotee (4): The difficulty is that we cannot understand . . . we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty?

Prabhupāda: You have no feeling; that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all.

Devotee (1): If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self?

Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction. You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that?

Pradyumna: "By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from . . ."

Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing."

(pause)

Prabhupāda: (loud motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape)

Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose?

Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Demons.

Kulādri: When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls.

Prabhupāda: No. They don't like us.

Kulādri: They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown-up son—five years old, innocent—but he's giving trouble.

Devotee (3): When we had sickness, the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now, and he's very interested.

Prabhupāda: However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters.

Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad-gītā.

(sound of motorcycles)

Prabhupāda: Oh. (end)