740405 - Morning Walk - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740405MW-BOMBAY - April 05, 1974 - 74:21 Minutes



Dr. Patel: From which, er, Girirāja? Which śloka? Nineteenth?

Girirāja: No, twenty-three.

Dr. Patel: Twenty-three.

rūpaṁ mahat te bahu-vaktra-netraṁ
mahā-bāho bahu-bāhūru-pādam
bahūdaraṁ bahu-daṁṣṭrā-karālaṁ
dṛṣṭvā lokāḥ pravyathitās tathāham
(BG 11.23)

"All are getting frightened of You, even myself."

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that bahu-vaktram bahūdaram.

Dr. Patel: Many, many.

Prabhupāda: That means bahu person, many person, all person. What is that?

Girirāja: "rūpam—form."

Prabhupāda: Form. First thing is form. Although virāṭ, but it includes so many forms. Then?

Girirāja: "mahat—very great; te—of You; bahu—many; vaktra—faces; netram— eyes; mahā-bāho—O mighty-armed one; bahu—many; bāhu—arms; ūru..."

Prabhupāda: Arms, He is exhibiting many. The same formula. Eko bahu syām. (indistinct) Then?

Girirāja: "...ūru—thighs; pādam—legs; bahu-udaram—many bellies; bahu-daṁṣṭrā..."

Prabhupāda: "Many bellies" means a personal form. Daṁṣṭrā karālām.

Girirāja: "...many teeth; karālam—horrible; dṛṣṭvā—seeing; lokāḥ—all the planets; pravyathitāḥ—perturbed; tathā—similarly; aham—I."

Translation: "O mighty-armed one, all the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your many faces, eyes, arms, bellies and legs, and Your terrible teeth, and as they are disturbed, so am I."

Prabhupāda: Kāla-rūpa. Kāla-rūpa. This is called kāla-rūpa. Then? Yes.

Dr. Patel: Shall I?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

nabhaḥ spṛśaṁ dīptam aneka-varṇaṁ
vyāttānanaṁ dīpta-viśāla-netram
dṛṣṭvā hi tvāṁ pravyathitāntarātmā
dhṛtiṁ na vindāmi śamaṁ ca viṣṇo
(BG 11.24)

Girirāja: "nabhaḥ-spṛśam—touching the sky; dīptam—glowing; aneka—many; varṇam—color; vyātta—open; ānanam—mouths; dīpta—glowing; viśāla—very great; netram—eyes; dṛṣṭvā—by seeing; hi—certainly; tvām—You; pravyathita—perturbed; antaḥ—within; ātmā—soul; dhṛtim—steadiness; na—no; vindāmi—and have; śamam—mental tranquillity; ca—also; viṣṇo—O Lord Viṣṇu."

Dr. Patel: At the same time, all the gods were seeing the same thing?

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, this word has been used, "all-pervading," "all-pervading forms." It does not mean that because all-pervading, there is no form. Form is there always.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

daṁṣṭrā-karālāni ca te mukhāni
dṛṣṭvāiva kālānala-sannibhāni
diśo na jāne na labhe ca śarma
prasīda deveśa jagan-nivāsa
(BG 11.25)

Girirāja: "daṁṣṭrā—teeth; karālāni—like that; ca—also; te—Your; mukhāni—faces; dṛṣṭvā—seeing; eva—thus; kāla-anala—the fire of death, as if blazing; diśaḥ—the directions; na jāne—do not know; na labhe—nor obtain; ca śarma—and grace; prasīda—be pleased; deva-īśa—O Lord of all lords; jagat-nivāsa—refuge of the worlds."

Translation: "O Lord of lords, O refuge of the worlds, please be gracious to me. I cannot keep my balance seeing Your blazing deathlike faces and awful teeth. In all directions I am bewildered."

Dr. Patel: There is no comment on that.

amī ca tvāṁ dhṛtarāṣṭrasya putrāḥ
sarve sahaivānipāla-saṅghaiḥ
bhīṣmo droṇaḥ sūta-putras tathāsau
sahāsmadīyair api yodha-mukhyaiḥ
vaktrāṇi te tvaramāṇā viśanti
daṁṣṭrā-karālāni bhayānakāni...
(BG 11.26-27)

(break)

Prabhupāda: ...earth, earth, and pāla means kings. Protectors. Rāja-pāla.

Dr. Patel: Our rāja-pāla, Giri. (break)

Girirāja: "...sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra along with their allied kings, and Bhīṣma, Droṇa and Karṇa, and all our soldiers are rushing into Your mouths,(break) ...heads smashed by Your fearful teeth. I see that some are being crushed between Your teeth as well."

Prabhupāda: (break) ... they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects. "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" Although within their lifetime they were very, very big leaders, but they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects and flies. That's it. (break) ...plans, but there is no plan how to stop...

Dr. Patel: Death. Final.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, how to stop this forceful entering into the mouth of the kāla. Just like a very good example: when there is fire and all the insects and flies, "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" That's it. Attracted by the beauty. Similarly, all these big, big leaders, being attracted, bahir-artha-māninaḥ... (SB 7.5.31). They have been described in Bhāgavata, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking this beautiful nature as everything: "There is no other thing."

Dr. Patel: There is very good description in Twelfth..., these things. (break)

Girirāja: "I see all people rushing with full speed into your mouths as moths dash into a blazing fire." (break)

Prabhupāda: The doctors also will enter. (laughter) Not only the patient, but the doctors also.

Dr. Patel: No, no, they help Him to put the thing in. He is pushing them in, like a fire, stoking the fire.

Prabhupāda: Don't think that doctors will be excused. (laughter) No, no. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break)

Dr. Patel: Just like...

Prabhupāda: He was thinking, "Oh, why shall I kill?"

Dr. Patel: "If I don't fight, they will live."

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already planned. So even if you don't kill, it is there already.

Dr. Patel: They are already killed.

Girirāja: "...tvām—you; na—never; bhaviṣyanti—will be; sarve—all; ye—who; avasthitāḥ—situated; prati-anīkeṣu—on the opposite sides; yodhāḥ—the soldiers."

Translation: "The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you, the Pāṇḍavas, all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain."

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further, sir, or you want to comment?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is going on. Although we have got so many plans to save, nobody can be saved. The destination, the bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), that will go on. Simply vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ (BG 4.10), they will be saved. Otherwise all finished.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Girirāja: Translation: "Therefore get up and prepare to fight. After conquering your enemies, you will enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasācin, can be but an instrument in the fight."

Prabhupāda: So this is very important verse, that by kāla, by time, due course of time, everything will be destroyed. So our duty is uttiṣṭha...

Dr. Patel: Fall in line with His wish. Fall in line with His wish.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He wishes, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34). This is our duty, not that "I have got that duty, that duty, that duty." That duty, that duty will not save you. They will be destroyed. Dehāpatya-kalatrādi. This is explained in Bhāgavata.

dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu
ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api
pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
(SB 2.1.4)

We are attached, deha, this body; apatya, children; dehāpatya-kalatrādi, wife. Kala... Because we increase through the wife, kalatrādi. Dehāpatya-kalatrādisu ātmā-sainyesu. We are thinking that "They are my soldiers. They will save me from the clutches of death." Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma..., asatsv api. They are not permanent. So although they are not permanent, they will be killed. I am thinking, "They will save me, my soldiers." So pramatta, this thought comes on account of becoming pramatta. Prakṛṣta-rūpena matta, mad. Yes. Pramatta tasya nidhanam. The plan is: everyone will be destroyed. Tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati. Although he has got experience that "So many relatives, so many friends, so many family men, they have all died, they could not save me. And what these, my wife, children and others, will save me?" But because he is pramatta, paśyann api na paśyati, even though he sees, he does not see.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Droṇaṁ ca bhīṣmaṁ ca jaya... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...hesitating to kill Droṇa or Bhīṣma. They are teachers. But it is duty. Kṛṣṇa wanted. Because they were on the wrong side, they must be killed. That was Kṛṣṇa's desire. So he should execute. (aside:) Jaya. (break)

Girirāja: "The Blessed Lord said: All the great warriors—Droṇa, Bhīṣma, Jayadratha, Karṇa—are already destroyed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies."

Prabhupāda: So this is our duty. Just like in this particular case, about our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that so many people are giving me the credit. (chuckles) Actually, I have no credit. It is already desired or it is already planned that "This time in Western countries, this saṅkīrtana movement..." So it is our duty. Similarly, our only duty is to carry out the order of the Supreme. Other things is already done by Him. So if we abide by the orders of the Supreme, then we get the credit. We should know that. So our only thing is to abide by the... That is... Another place, Bhagavad-gītā, is explained:

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
(BG 2.41)

So those who are vyavasāya, niścayātmika-buddhi, their duty is to carry out the orders of the Supreme. And the Supreme is giving order in two ways: as caittya-guru from within, and as spiritual master. Inside and outside.

Dr. Patel: Consult your ātmā within in action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, to receive the order of Kṛṣṇa, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), one should approach the bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa and take order from him what to do, and that is his only duty. That is his only duty. Otherwise he will manufacture so many duties that will not be helpful to him. That niscayatmika-buddhiḥ, that has been very nicely explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, that "Whatever order I receive from my guru, that is my life and soul. I don't mind whether I'll be liberated or not, whether I will be successful or not. That is not my concern. My only concern is to see whether I am factually, faithfully carrying out the order of my guru." This is... Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura notes. So these things are being explained in the same way, that "You do not think which is right or wrong. You simply... I have asked you to fight. You go on fighting and take the credit. That's all."

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sañjaya uvāca... (BG 11.35) (break)

Girirāja: "Sañjaya said to Dhṛtarāṣṭra: O King, after hearing these words from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Arjuna trembled, fearfully offered obeisances with folded hands and began, faltering, to speak as follows."

Prabhupāda: So without seeing viśva-rūpa, simply by abiding by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if we act, then there is no question of trembling.

Dr. Patel: So we must not try to see the viśva-rūpa, to tremble.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

arjuna uvāca
sthāne hṛṣīkeśa tava prakīrtyā
jagat prahṛṣyaty anurajyate ca
rakṣāṁsi bhītāni diśo dravanti
sarve namasyanti ca siddha-saṅghāḥ
(BG 11.36)

(break)

Girirāja: "O Hṛṣīkeśa, the world becomes joyful upon hearing Your name, and thus everyone becomes attached to You. Although the perfected beings offer You their respectful homage, the demons are afraid, and they flee here and there. All this is rightly done." (break)

Prabhupāda: Siddha, there is a Siddhaloka. So they can fly from one planet to another without any machine, siddha-saṅgāḥ. Means the aṣṭa-siddhi yogas they have got naturally.

Dr. Patel: All aṣṭa-siddhis, they have got.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are called siddha, Siddhaloka.

Dr. Patel: That means they have got all the siddhis which...

Prabhupāda: Just like here if anyone wants to walk over the water, he requires to acquire so much mystic power. You see? Some of the yogīs. But you will find one bird, skylark, one swan, he is very easily doing.

Dr. Patel: They have siddhas from the birth.

Prabhupāda: So they are trying to get that siddha, the perfection, by so much yogic process, but another living entity, without understanding any yogic process, can do that. So these things are not very great gains. There are... In different planets there are different living entities. Just like we cannot touch fire, but in the sun globe there are also life, human beings, but their body is made of fire. Just like in the water. I cannot go into the water, but there are so many small fishes, they are living very nicely. So this we do not know. We are trying to gain success in these material activities, but by God's will there are different living entities, they have already all the successes. So therefore our real business is not to waste our time to get any material success. Our real business is how we shall be successful to become an obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is real success.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (many dogs barking close by) Let me explain this. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja was offered benediction, "Now you take benediction." So he said that "Where is benediction? I have seen my father was so powerful materially that even the demigods, they were threatened, frightened. So even if I get such material successes, but You can finish it within a second. So why shall I take all these benediction? Please engage me as the servant of Your servants. That is my success."

Dr. Patel: Perpetual engagement in the service of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is vaiṣṇava-vicāra.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) It means they must. (break)

Girirāja: "...O great one; garīyase—You are better than; brahmaṇaḥ—Brahmā; api—although; ādi-kartre—the supreme creator; ananta—unlimited; deva-īśa—God of the gods; jagat-nivāsa—O refuge of the universe; tvam—You are; akṣaram..." (break)

"O great one, who stands above even Brahmā, You are the original master. Why should they not offer their homage up to You, O limitless one? O refuge of the universe, You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation."

Prabhupāda: So our duty is to accept the original Supreme, Kṛṣṇa, because...

Dr. Patel: He is ādi-kartā.

Prabhupāda: Ādi-kartā.

Dr. Patel: Tvam ādi-devaḥ... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...purāṇas, not new manufactured. (break) If I have to offer my obeisances and surrender, why not to Kṛṣṇa? Why an imitation Kṛṣṇa? Why? Just like if you go to purchase some medicine, the shopkeeper may say, "Now, here is a medicine equal to this medicine, and its price is less." So no sane man will purchase. "Why I shall purchase the imitation for being less price? Give me the original." (break) ...the life of Ramakrishna. It is said that at the time of his death he said to his disciples, especially to Vivekananda, that "I am the same Rāma, I am the same Kṛṣṇa," and he took it. And he preached that "This Gadadhara Chatterjee, Rāma-Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Then if he is referring to the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, so why not take the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? Where is the proof? Simply by his words one can accept? Just like he is taking the proof, Arjuna. Yes.

Girirāja: "You are the original Personality, the Godhead. You are the only sanctuary of this manifested cosmic world. You know everything, and You are all that is knowable. You are above the material modes. O limitless form, this whole cosmic manifestation is pervaded by You."

Prabhupāda: Now, instead of accepting the original, real thing, why people accept imitation? What is the reason?

Dr. Patel: Because they get the earthly benefit much quicker by worshiping the lower gods. That is what I have been...

Prabhupāda: No, no, not lower gods. Lower god, I am not speaking. Imitation god. Lower god, demigod, that is..., they are lower. That is already... I mean to say, somebody says that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, same Rāma." Why he is accepted like that, giving up the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? What is the reason?

Dr. Patel: Guru-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: What is that guru-bhakti? Guru never says that "I am Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." That is rascaldom. If any guru says that, then he is not guru.

Dr. Patel: He is rascal a guru.

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, not guru. Rascal cannot be guru. You cannot add this. Then they are the same, daridra-nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa cannot be daridra; daridra cannot be Nārāyaṇa. Similarly, rascal cannot be guru, and guru is not rascal. So this is a question. I am inquiring from you. Why people accept this imitation?

Satsvarūpa: They want to be cheated?

Prabhupāda: No, they don't want to be cheated, but... Of course, they are cheated. But what is the psychology of accepting imitation, false god? I am asking you.

Dr. Patel: Me? I have no answer.

Prabhupāda: You, Dr. Sar.

Mr. Sar: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. Why you should be imitate?

Dr. Patel: He has got the answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes, answer.

Yaśomatīnandana: Because they are less intelligent.

Dr. Patel: He is more intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has accepted Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is more intelligent than these rascals. Yes. He has accepted the original. He is not going to accept any false imitation. Therefore he is intelligent, more intelligent.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Vāyur yamo... (BG 11.39) (break)

Girirāja: "You are air, fire, water, and You are the moon. You are the supreme controller and the grandfather. Thus I offer my respectful obeisances unto You a thousand times, and again and yet again." (break)

Prabhupāda: Here is paramparā. Now, if we follow the footsteps of Arjuna, and we should surrender like that.

Dr. Patel:

namaḥ purastād atha pṛṣṭhatas te
namo 'stu te sarvata eva sarva
ananta-vīryāmita...
(BG 11.40)

(break)

Prabhupāda: ...studying Bhagavad-gītā. If somebody recommends that "We accept this false," then what kind of business this is? Everyone says, "Oh, we have studied Bhagavad-gītā." (laughs) What you have studied? You are attached to some false imitation, and how you have studied? So am I right, Mr. Sar?

Mr. Sar: You are always right.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are not properly answering. (laughter) I know that. Now...

Dr. Patel: You come into altercation unnecessarily.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there must be paripraśna. There must be paripraśna. Paripraśna is required, but in submissiveness, with reasoning, not like vagabonds, no. Paripraśna must be there. Now, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, if somebody says that "Here is an imitation God accepted," is that very nice thing? This should be discussed. Otherwise, if we stick to our original principle and go on reading Bhagavad-gītā three times a day, then what is the use? What is the use?

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Ananta-vīryā... (break)

Prabhupāda: Answer.

Dr. Patel: It will be unanswerable by us. Unanswerable by me. I have to submit. Otherwise you may fire me unnecessarily and create trouble, and I create trouble for you.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I will not fire. I'll not fire. We are coming to reasoning. Without paripraśna, reasoning... Either you should accept that you should not, anyone, recommend any imitation...

Dr. Patel: We accept what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā, all right, in toto.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we are actually student of Bhagavad-gītā, we should accept it in toto instead of deviating from that. That is my request. We are teaching that. Why one should deviate?

Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa is one reality. He may have many forms. He may have many names. Kṛṣṇa is one reality. He is correct. But He can have many names. Eko sad-viprā bahudhā vadanti.

Prabhupāda: Bahudhā vadanti, but bahudhā are mentioned. Mentioned. Just like Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma. That is in the śāstra. Therefore, if you take one of the names, then you have to refer to the śāstra, not that you manufacture one word. That you cannot do.

Indian man (2): The śāstras were also made by men, sages.

Prabhupāda: No, no, then which one you will accept?

Indian man (2): ...by the realized persons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śāstra means...

Indian man (2): But you cannot say that in this age there are no realized persons. Just like we come to you.

Prabhupāda: No. It must corroborate.

Indian man (2): Corroborated by whom?

Prabhupāda: Corroborated by you.

Dr. Patel: Vedas only.

Prabhupāda: By you. If somebody says that "I am correct," then you have to refer to the śāstra whether he is correct or wrong. Just like a medical man. There is characteristic of certain chemicals that is mentioned. So when accepting some chemical, the medical man tests in his laboratory whether it is correct. Not that somebody brings some chemical, some bunch of lime, and he says, "It is sodium chloride," or something, something. It must be tested. So the testing method is mentioned there, that the avatāra means..., this avatāra means "His feature of body is this, His work is like this, He will come on such and such." Just like Kalki avatāra. Kalki avatāra, it is mentioned in the śāstra... Although He will come after four lakhs of years... It is stated in the śāstra that in Sambal... Sambal, in the house of Viṣṇu-josi, Kalki avatāra will come.

Dr. Patel: In central provinces.

Prabhupāda: Not central provinces. Not mentioned there. Sambal it is.

Dr. Patel: In northern part of India.

Prabhupāda: No, that is also not mentioned. Simply Sambal. And Bhāgavata was written five thousand years ago, and there is also mention of Lord Buddha's name. Kikaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati (SB 1.3.24). Bhaviṣyati. This word is used, "in future." So this is śāstra, that even the incarnation will come four lakhs of years after or 2,500 years after, still, there is mention. His feature, his work—everything is there. Why should we accept a false imitation unless it is corroborated by the śāstra? You cannot say everyone is realized soul because he recommends something. No. We have to corroborate. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the defect of our understanding, that we accept everyone as realized soul. How he is realized soul? If he is speaking something wrong, how he is realized soul? Against the śāstra, that is not realized soul. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). Śāstra reference must be there.

Dr. Patel: In śāstra all the signs, symptoms and characteristics of a siddha are mentioned. And those characteristics must be there with the siddha.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then we shall accept. Sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya tinete karīyā aikya. Śāstra will say, and guru will say, "Yes, it is rightly said." Saintly person also will accept. Just like Kṛṣṇa is accepted by Arjuna: paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). He immediately mentioned that "Such, such, authorities, accept. The śāstra says." Not that because Kṛṣṇa was his friend, he accepted blindly. No. That is corroboration. Whether it is mentioned in the śāstra, whether other saintly persons... Just like there are so many avatāras, but we have got our ācārya-sampradāya, Rāmānuja, Yamunācārya. Whether they are accepting? Not a third-class man accepted, and it is accepted. The ācārya. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 6.14.2). This is the way of accepting. (break) Everyone will create his authority, and unlimited imitation God will come into existence, and people will be diverted from the reality. (break) The same example, that "Here is an imitation medicine, very cheap, as good as the original one." Even taking it for acceptance that it is as good as the other one, but why, in the presence of the original, I shall accept this imitation? What is your answer? Accepting this imitation is as good the other, but if the other, original, is present, I can get it, why shall I go to the imitation? (break)

Indian man (2): No, no, that is my understanding. You correct me. According to me, Vedas are first.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): You also say that, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): Vedas only repeat the Vedic rites.

Indian man (3): Veda, veda means Vedānta. Vedānta-sūtra comes afterwards.

Dr. Patel: Vedānta-sūtra explanation other... (break)

Prabhupāda: Purāṇas are not Vedas?

Indian man (2): Purāṇas, how can it be? (indistinct) does not agree.

Prabhupāda: That is your mistake.

Indian man (3): Well I, I'm not a...

Prabhupāda: You see, Madhva... (break) They are supplementary to the Vedas.

Dr. Patel: These are the agamas and nigamas. These are the agamas.

Prabhupāda: This is the Māyāvādīs' version. They do not accept the Purāṇas. This is Māyāvādī version.

Indian man (3): But Purāṇas comes afterwards.

Prabhupāda: But our paramparā system, Madhvācārya, he has accepted Purāṇas, Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata as Vedic literature. So we have to follow the ācārya. Ācāryavān puruṣo... Yes. Not only Madhvācārya, all, all other ācāryas.

Indian man (2): Ācārya, ṛṣis, they have got all different...

Dr. Patel: But those people are following Śaṅkarācārya. Those whom you call... What do you call them?

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī.

Dr. Patel: Māyāvādī. Śaṅkarācārya and all the brāhmanas...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but Śaṅkarācārya accepted Bhagavad-gītā. Then... He commented, and he accepted Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: His commentation is different, you see.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. He has accepted Kṛṣṇa, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. He has accepted. You have read, Bhagavad-gītā? He has accepted.

Dr. Patel: Yes, I have read it.

Prabhupāda: Then why the Śaṅkarites will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? (break) ...destructful question that Vedas and Purāṇas... No. Śaṅkarācārya accepted. If you are real follower of Śaṅkarācārya, you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Indian man (2): Śaṅkarācārya also accepted Śiva also. Śiva and Kṛṣṇa is nondifferent.

Dr. Patel: No, don't say that. (Hindi) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: They worship Viṣṇu. They worship Viṣṇu.

Indian man (2): They worship Viṣṇu, but their prime deity is Śaṅkara, and not...

Prabhupāda: No, no. They worship five mūrtis. Five mūrtis. So they give equal im... Because Śiva is also not ultimate. Śaṅkarācārya's thesis is, "Ultimately, the Absolute Truth is nirākāra." Not even Śiva. Therefore, either Śiva or Viṣṇu or Gaṇeśa, the same thing, same thing. They are not sticking with the Śiva form. They worship Viṣṇu form, also Gaṇeśa, as it is recommended in that book. (break) The difference is there. That difference is there. But we have to take which is correct.

Indian man (2): According to their realizations, you see.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to take which is correct.

Indian man (2): Who can take... You see, I... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...if you know which ācārya is correct.

Indian man (2): Oh, which ācārya. So if your conscience... (break)

Prabhupāda: Ācārya means one. Ācārya... Just like Vedavyāsa. Vedavyāsa. (Indian men arguing in background) (break) Now, then you must know what is God. That is God.

Indian man (2): So why talk about ācāryas and why discuss these things?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why discuss not? Discussion must be there to understand. No, no, no. First of all, if God is...

Indian man (2): There should be no uncompromising attitude about others' views. What I mean is that there should be no uncompromising attitude regarding others' views. You see, we must have our attitude of brotherhood. (break)

Prabhupāda: What Vyāsadeva says? That is described in the...

Dr. Patel: What Vyāsadeva says. Different ācāryas' interpretation...

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no interpretation. How can you interpret? (all talking at once) (break)

Indian man (2): ...when you follow ācārya. You see... (break)

Prabhupāda: Ācārya means not foolishly.

Indian man (2): Foolishly? But there should be rational outlook. We agree with you. There should be rational outlook about all these things, and then, you see...

Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva says... Vyāsadeva says that, in his all writings, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya.

Indian man (2): That is all right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam is correct.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.

Indian man (2): Śivo 'ham. Śivo 'ham.

Prabhupāda: Śivo 'ham is another thing.

Indian man (2): No, that is also there, you see. You can't forget that... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...when require first of all. If you... (Hindi) Interpretation when required? When you cannot understand. But if you understand, why should you interpret?

Indian man (2): No, he has interpreted...

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all, let us understand where interpretation required.

Dr. Patel: When there is a difficulty in understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. When there is difficulty in understanding. But when there is no difficulty in understanding, then why there is interpretation? (break) ...by Kṛṣṇa in the Eleventh Chapter, where is the difficulty to understand? (break) There is no need of interpretation. Now, suppose Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām (BG 18.65).

Indian man (2): Then why these ācāryas have interpretated Gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, no, real ācārya will not interpret. The one who is false ācārya, he will interpret.

Indian man (2): So Śaṅkarācārya was not a false ācārya. He has interpreted Gītā. He has got a big bhāṣya of Gītā. Rāmānujācārya has got a big bhāṣya of Gītā. (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Dr. Patel: This is the real thing, what the Vedas say, that even though, after studying all and after you think that you are realized, though in keno... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...wasting your time.

Dr. Patel: No, we are not wasting our time. Still I may tell you sir, that we are not wasting our time.

Prabhupāda: No, if you read, then why you are wasting time?

Dr. Patel: This is my interpretation. (break)

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not realized. (Indians all talking at once) No, no, no. No, no, no. I have realized... (break) ...should stop discussing Bhagavad-gītā, because Bhagavad-gītā begins, evaṁ paramparā.

Indian man (2): It's no the way of... (shouting unintelligibly)

Prabhupāda: No, no. (break) ...as the ācārya. And we have to accept.

Dr. Patel: What I mean to say, the realized people don't criticize, because final proof nobody knows. (break)

Prabhupāda: Sarvārhanam acyutejyā. Simply by worshiping Kṛṣṇa, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can worship everyone. There is no need of separately worshiping the five devatās. There is no need.

Girirāja: "tatraika-sthaṁ—there, at one place; jagat—universe; kṛtsnam—completely; pravibhaktam—divided in; anekadhā—many kinds; apaśyat—could see; deva-devasya—of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; śarīre—in the universal form; pāṇḍavaḥ—Arjuna; tadā—at that time."

Translation: "At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place, although divided into many, many thousands."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, although... Now, what is important? The many, many thousands universes divided into varieties of opulences, that is important, or Kṛṣṇa important?

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is important.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Dr. Patel: The whole thing was ekāṁśena sthito jagat.

Prabhupāda: That is being explained.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

tataḥ sa vismayāviṣṭo
hṛṣṭa-romā dhanañjayaḥ
praṇamya śirasā devaṁ
kṛtāñjalir abhāṣata
(BG 11.14)

He got frightened.

Girirāja: "tataḥ—thereafter; saḥ—he; vismaya-āviṣṭaḥ—being overwhelmed with wonder; hṛṣṭa-romā—with his bodily hairs standing on end due to this great ecstasy; dhanañjayaḥ—Arjuna; praṇamya—offering obeisances; śirasā—with the head; devam—to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kṛta-añjaliḥ—with folded hands; abhāṣata—began to say."

Translation: "Then, bewildered and astonished, his hair standing on end, Arjuna began to pray with folded hands, offering obeisances to the Supreme Lord."

Dr. Patel: He was frightened, seeing that. Shall I read further, arjuna uvāca?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, why he became frightened?

Dr. Patel: On seeing such a huge, I mean, unbelievable things perhaps by ordinary human being. In a one place of Kṛṣṇa's. (indistinct) Right?

Indian man (2): He realized his insignificance because of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

arjuna uvāca
paśyāmi devāṁs tava deva dehe
sarvāṁs tathā bhūta-viśeṣa-saṅghān
brahmāṇam īśaṁ kamalāsana-stham
ṛṣīṁś ca sarvān uragāṁś ca divyān
(BG 11.15)

Prabhupāda: Now, he is beginning from the three deities of creation: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara.

Girirāja: "arjunaḥ uvāca—Arjuna said; paśyāmi—I see; devān—all the demigods; tava—Your; deva—O Lord; dehe—in the body; sarvān—all; tathā—also; bhūta—living entities; viśeṣa-saṅghān—specifically assembled; brahmāṇam—Lord Brahmā; īśam—Lord Śiva; kamala-āsana-stham—sitting on the lotus flower; ṛṣīn—great sages; ca—also; sarvān—all; uragān—serpents; ca—also; divyān—divine."

Translation: "Arjuna said: My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see assembled together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahmā sitting on the lotus flower, as well as Lord Śiva and many sages and divine serpents."

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir? Or you want...

Prabhupāda: So you are understanding all this? If you have got any question, you can ask. All right, go on.

Dr. Patel: I go on.

aneka-bāhūdara-vaktra-netraṁ
paśyāmi tvāṁ sarvato 'nanta-rūpam
nāntaṁ na madhyaṁ na punas tavādiṁ
paśyāmi viśveśvara viśva-rūpa
(BG 11.16)

Girirāja: "aneka—many..." (pause)

Prabhupāda: (very faint—indistinct) "Because one, there is no aneka," that is nonsense. In one, aneka, that is philosophy.

Dr. Patel: Eko asmin bhaviṣyāmi abhutyam.(?)

Prabhupāda: Aneka, in one. But "Because there is aneka," therefore, "because there is one, therefore no consideration of the aneka," that is not intelligent. Aneka in one. That is real philosophy.

Girirāja: "...bāhū—arms..."

Prabhupāda: Aneka, that is in one. Therefore this aneka is not different from the one. But this aneka does not mean that one.

(to Girirāja:) Read.

Girirāja: "...bāhu—arms; udara—bellies; vaktra—mouths; netram—eyes; paśyāmi—I see; tvām—unto You; sarvataḥ—from all sides; ananta-rūpam—unlimited form; na antam—there is no end; na madhyam—there is no middle; na punaḥ—nor again; tava—Your; ādim—beginning; paśyāmi—I see; viśva-īśvara—O Lord of the universe; viśva-rūpa—in the form of the universe."

Translation: "O Lord of the universe..."

Prabhupāda: Still, although he saw aneka in Kṛṣṇa, still, he is seeing Kṛṣṇa there. That is real vision.

Girirāja: "O Lord of the universe, I see in Your universal body many, many forms—bellies, mouths, eyes—expanded without limit. There is no end, there is no beginning and there is no middle to all this."

Prabhupāda: A crude example can be given: Just like a man may be director of this company and trust of that company and so many where he is working. But his wife is seeing that he is her husband, that's all. He does not see anything, although he is working in aneka-rūpam. This is the..., a crude example. He (she) has his eyes to see, "Here is my beloved husband." That's all. Just like Yaśodāmayī. Yaśodāmayī saw that all the universes within the mouth. He (she) asked, he (she) ordered Kṛṣṇa, "I want to see whether You have eaten dirt. Open Your mouth." So Kṛṣṇa opened the mouth, and not only dirt, but all the universes... So she saw, but she did not believe that Kṛṣṇa can have all these universes.

Dr. Patel: Because she was seeing her son.

Prabhupāda: So she said, "All right, that's all right. Don't do it again." She did not take care of the universes. Although Kṛṣṇa showed him (her) all the universes within the mouth, she was concerned with Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

Dr. Patel: Next verse? All right.

kirīṭinaṁ gadinaṁ cakriṇaṁ ca
tejo-rāśiṁ sarvato dīptimantam
paśyāmi tvāṁ durnirīkṣyaṁ samantād
dīptānalārka-dyutim aprameyam
(BG 11.17)

Girirāja: "kirīṭinam—with helmets; gadinam—with maces; cakriṇam—with discs; ca—and; tejaḥ-rāśim—effulgence; sarvataḥ—all sides; dīpti-mantam—glowing; paśyāmi—I see; tvām—You; durnirīkṣyam—difficult to see; samantāt—spreading; dīpta-anala..."

Prabhupāda: The glowings are there; we cannot see even the sun. All the glowings are there. It is difficult. Yes. Go on.

Girirāja: "...durnirīkṣyam—difficult to see; samantāt—spreading; dīpta-anala—blazing fire; arka—sun; dyutim—sunshine; aprameyam—immeasurable."

Translation: "Your form, adorned with various crowns, clubs and discs, is difficult to see because of its glaring effulgence, which is fiery and immeasurable like the sun."

Dr. Patel: Do you want to comment, or shall I read on?

Prabhupāda: No, it is all right.

Dr. Patel:

tvam akṣaraṁ paramaṁ veditavyaṁ
tvam asya viśvasya paraṁ nidhānam
tvam avyayaḥ śāśvata-dharma-goptā
sanātanas tvaṁ puruṣo mato me
(BG 11.18)

Girirāja: "tvam—You; akṣaram—inexhaustible; paramam—supreme; veditavyam—to be understood; tvam—You; asya—of this; viśvasya—of the universe; param—supreme; nidhānam—basis; tvam—You are; avyayaḥ—inexhaustible; śāśvata-dharma-goptā—maintainer of the eternal religion; sanātanaḥ—eternal; tvam—You; puruṣaḥ—Supreme Personality; mataḥ me—is my opinion."

Translation: "You are the supreme primal objective; You are the best in all the universes; You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest; You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupāda: This is to be understood. The same thing, the supremacy of Kṛṣṇa, is being repeatedly stressed in so many ways, and still, by reading Bhagavad-gītā, they do not accept the supremacy of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

anādi-madhyāntam ananta-vīryam
ananta-bāhuṁ śaśi-sūrya-netram
paśyāmi tvāṁ dīpta-hutāśa-vaktraṁ
sva-tejasā viśvam idaṁ tapantam
(BG 11.19)

Girirāja: "anādi—without beginning; madhya—without middle; antam—without end; ananta—unlimited; vīryam—glorious; ananta—unlimited; bāhum—arms; śaśi—moon; sūrya—sun; netram—eye..."

Prabhupāda: Now, one question may be raised, that after reading all the details of Bhagavad-gītā, if somebody said, "There was no Kṛṣṇa," what kind of inter...

Dr. Patel: He is a fool.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) So see. And these fools and rascals are going on as big men. You see? What kind of Bhagavad-gītā he has read, that he says that "There was no Kṛṣṇa, there was no Battlefield of Kurukṣetra"? And that is our challenge: "Why do you say like that?" Mr. Sar? What do they say like that?

Mr. Sar: They are ignorant people.

Dr. Patel: They are śūṣka Vedāntists.

Prabhupāda: No. They are rascals, simply rascals, not śūṣka Vedāntists. Vedāntist is... His father is also not Vedāntist. They do not know what is Vedānta. Simply rascals. That is our propaganda, that why you accept these rascals as leader?

Mr. Sar: Upaniṣads describe Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa is described in the Upaniṣads as existent. Then how can they say there is no Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, they say, "There was no Kṛṣṇa." That is the most regrettable incidence, that these people, they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, and still, they pose themselves as a knower of Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. That should be protested now. That is our mission. "No, you cannot say like that."

Dr. Patel: I think that we are going to read up to the mandir. Because we have not... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...study one line, that is sufficient. It does not mean to go like a storm and do not understand.

Dr. Patel: We don't go like a storm. We go very slowly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Let us go slow, but sure.

Dr. Patel: Slow, but sure, yes.

Girirāja: "...paśyāmi—I see; tvām—You; dīpta—blazing; hutāśa-vaktram—fire coming out of Your mouth; sva-tejasā—by Your; viśvam—this universe; idam—this; tapantam—heating."

Translation: "You are the origin, without beginning, middle or end. You have numberless arms, and the sun and the moon are among Your great, unlimited eyes. By Your own radiance, You are heating this entire universe."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said that prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. Now that being exhibited by Kṛṣṇa. Not only Kṛṣṇa said, but He exhibited.

Dr. Patel: And now for the real thing. Shall I read, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

dyāv ā-pṛthivyor idam antaraṁ hi
vyāptaṁ tvayaikena diśaś ca sarvāḥ
dṛṣṭvādbhutaṁ rūpam ugraṁ tavedaṁ
loka-trayaṁ pravyathitaṁ mahātman
(BG 11.20)

Girirāja: "dyau—in outer space; ā-pṛthivyoḥ—of the earth; idam—this; antaram—inbetween; hi—certainly; vyāptam—pervaded; tvayā—by You; ekena—by one; diśaḥ—directions; ca—and; sarvāḥ—all; dṛṣṭvā—by seeing; adbhutam—wonderful; rūpam—form; ugram—terrible; tava—Your; idam—this; loka—planetary system; trayam—three; pravyathitam—perturbed; mahā-ātman—O great one."

Translation: "Although You are one, You are spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great one, as I behold this terrible form, I see that all the planetary systems are perplexed."

Prabhupāda: For devotee, that is a terrible form. That is not very pleasing. Therefore they do not worship the virāṭa form. They worship Kṛṣṇa's original, dvi-bhuja. Dvi-bhuja murlīdhāra śyāmasundara. That is the original form.

Dr. Patel: That is what we say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvi-bhuja murlidhara śyāmasundara. Venuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁsam asitāmbudha-sundarāṅgam (Bs. 5.30). Arcā-vigraha. Venuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁ... Barha, this peacock feather. They are described in the Vedic literature. But these rascals say that "It is imagination. They have imagined." The Māyāvādīs say, "They have imagined a form of God as Kṛṣṇa, with peacock feather, with murlī." But that's not the fact. The fact is there in the Vedic literature. So Kṛṣṇa has got this universal form, but the devotees are not interested with this universal form. But they know that Kṛṣṇa has universal form. Go on.

Dr. Patel:

amī hi tvāṁ sura-saṅghā viśanti
kecid bhītāḥ prāñjalayo gṛṇanti
svastīty uktvā maharṣi-siddha-saṅghāḥ
stuvanti tvāṁ stutibhiḥ puṣkalābhiḥ
(BG 11.21)

Girirāja: "amī—all those; hi—certainly; tvām—unto You; sura-saṅghāḥ—groups of demigods; viśanti—entering; kecit—some of them; bhītāḥ—out of fear; prāñjalayaḥ—with folded hands; gṛṇanti—offering prayers unto; svasti—all peace; iti—thus; uktvā—speaking like that; mahā-ṛṣi—great sages; siddha-saṅghāḥ—perfect sages; stuvanti—singing hymns; tvām—unto You; stutibhiḥ—with prayers; puṣkalābhiḥ—Vedic hymns."

Translation: "All the demigods are surrendering and entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are singing the Vedic hymns."

Prabhupāda: When the demigods... They have to offer prayers to the Lord, instead of... How they can be worshiped on the equal level of God? How can they be worshiped on the...? That is forbidden. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ. (aside:) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ
brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ
samatvenaiva vīkṣeta
sa pāṣaṇḍī bhaved dhruvam
(CC Madhya 18.116)

Nārāyaṇam devam, the Supreme Personality of God Nārāyaṇa, if one makes Him on the equal position with such big, big demigods like Brahmā, Rudra, so immediately he becomes a pāṣāṇḍī. And now they are comparing with the daridra. Just see.

Dr. Patel: Now again you are going that way. (laughs) Shall I read on?

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is a fact, you must understand. You do not know. You must know it. You must know it. Nārāyaṇa cannot be compared with Brahmā, Rudra, and these rascals have compared Him with daridra. Just see how much rascal they are.

Mr. Sar: Illustration.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here the all the... (Dr. Patel begins next verse) Why you are anxious to read? You be anxious to understand first of all.

Dr. Patel: I have understood.

Prabhupāda: You do not understand. That is... You fight with me. Therefore I am reading this. Yes. We are speaking on Bhagavad-gītā, not your imaginary words. That is our point. How these rascals compare with, ordinary, poor man, with Nārāyaṇa?

Dr. Patel: That is wrong.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yes.

Dr. Patel: I say so, but immediately I understood, but we want to understand more and more. You say it is not possible to understand...

Prabhupāda: No, if you immediately understand, then immediately you forget also.

Dr. Patel: No, I don't forget.

Prabhupāda: No, no, immediately understanding means immediately forget. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: It is not possible to forget. I understand immediately and never forget. For all it may not be. Shall I read further, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

rudrādityā vasavo ye ca sādhyā
viśve 'śvinau marutaś coṣmapāś ca
gandharva-yakṣāsura-siddha-saṅghā
vīkṣante tvāṁ vismitāś caiva sarve
(BG 11.22)

Prabhupāda: Now he is describing who are offering prayers. All the big, big demigods, surāsaṅgha, they are respectfully offering. And they cannot be equal. The Māyāvādī says, "All the demigods, you chant, chant 'Hare Kṛṣṇa' or 'Kālī Kṛṣṇa' or 'Durgā Kṛṣṇa,' this is all the same."

Dr. Patel: Or daridra-nārāyaṇa. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Or daridra-nārāyaṇa, that is the same.

Girirāja: "rudra—manifestations of Lord Śiva; ādityāḥ—the Ādityas; vasavaḥ—the Vasus; ye—all those; ca—and; sādhyāḥ—the Sādhyas; viśve—the Viśvedevas..." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...clearly described what is God, what is the distinction between God and other demigods, living entity. Everything is clearly explained. So you can talk all nonsense without Bhagavad-gītā. That is another chapter. But if you claim that "We read Bhagavad-gītā," you cannot say like that. That is our propaganda. If you actually have read Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot say all this nonsense. (break)

Dr. Patel: ...common features of Kṛṣṇa are common to all paramparās. It can't be different from one another.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Paramparā... He says, "As soon as this paramparā is lost, the Bhagavad-gītā was lost." Naṣṭaḥ. It is said, naṣṭaḥ. "Therefore I am taking you again as paramparā." You see? If you do not accept...

Dr. Patel: What you say... I mean... Listen. This is one of the way of seeing things.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You see..., open, open (indistinct).

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is so multifarious, and so multiple energies you have got that only ekasmin, I mean...

Prabhupāda: No, no, here it is said, in the Fourth... This is Fourth Chapter?

Dr. Patel: No, this is Twelfth Chapter. I am reading the common features of all the sādhus. Adveṣṭā sarva-bhūtānāṁ maitraḥ karuṇa eva ca, nirmamo nirahaṅkāraḥ, nirahaṅkāraḥ... (BG 12.13). We must have no aṅkāra, sama-duḥkha-sukhaḥ kṣamī.

Prabhupāda: No, that is ahaṅkāra, that "I have got my own interpretation." That is ahaṅkāra.

Dr. Patel: But you say your own interpretation also. That is also ahaṅkāra, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am taking the interpretation of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: He must be also taking in that way.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: With all my due respect, sir, well, we must have some sort of forbearance for others' views. I am very sorry to say that.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Because if we have got to preach, we cannot make any compromise.

Dr. Patel: You preach that way, we have no objection. But we should also respect somebody else's views.

Prabhupāda: No, we have got all respect, but not unnecessary respect.

Dr. Patel: But even unnecessary respect sometimes you unnecessarily go beyond, according to the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we have respect. But a thief should be called a thief. That is truth.

Dr. Patel: You are the magistrate and you are the judge and you are the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not judge. I am talking on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15): "One who is a narādhamāḥ, he does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa." This is judgment. Ah! As soon as we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, we accept narādhamāḥ. That's all. Whatever he may be.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is not only one name. There are... All the names of God are...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Then we disbelieve that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got name...

Dr. Patel: All the names of God are Kṛṣṇa's names. That is what we are taught from our birth.

Prabhupāda: Then why you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? You can chant any name.

Dr. Patel: No, but we want to chant Kṛṣṇa's name.

Prabhupāda: You can chant any name.

Dr. Patel: No, but we want to chant Kṛṣṇa's name, that's all. That is the purest.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is contradictory. You said... Sometimes you say that Kṛṣṇa has got many names...

Dr. Patel: If I say, "Christ, Christ, Christ," it is also goes to Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (4): But do you think all the medicines are the equal?

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, there are some potent medicines, all are equal. And that is Kṛṣṇa and that is Christ and that is Bhagavān and that is Viṣṇu and that is Rāma. The same medicine with multiple names. Okay?

Indian man (4): Well, then it is the same disease.

Dr. Patel: All the disease, one medicine.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you prescribe a particular...

Dr. Patel: Because this is supernatural. This is not ordinary medicine. This is not the medicine of earthly things. This is the medicine of super things. That is why one name, all. What do you want to say in this interpretation? Because we are not dealing with earth here. We are dealing with spiritual things. And... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...sane body cannot prescribe one medicine for everyone.

Dr. Patel: But that is in this earth, in this māyā. But beyond māyā, you can prescribe one medicine for all. That is Kṛṣṇa's medicine. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...says, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ, these words. (break) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15).

Dr. Patel: Right, but we are prapadyante.

Prabhupāda: We are talking only... We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. That is our business. It may be palatable or not palatable. It doesn't matter. We have to place as it is. (break) That criterion is there, that... (break)

Dr. Patel: ...whether he had come from the lowest of the low. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...realization is this, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he must be one of these: duṣkṛtino, mūḍhaḥ, narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.

Dr. Patel: How can you say people are...?

Prabhupāda: ...whether Kṛṣṇa says. We are fool, rascal. We simply repeat Kṛṣṇa's words. That's all. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā, then you have to accept like that.

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā is not... I mean Bhagavad-gītā, not the other, secondary literatures. (break) Why not? Have I no right to read?

Prabhupāda: You can have right to misinterpret. That's all right. But we are not going to do that. No.

Dr. Patel: It all depends upon my own intelligence, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break)

Dr. Patel: ...dadāmi yogo 'ham. He gives me that yoga and I interpret it. How can you say that? I have got no power excepting the power given by God.

Prabhupāda: When you take intelligence from Kṛṣṇa...

Dr. Patel: That is what He gives me, and I take it.

Prabhupāda: And He says that "If you don't surrender Me, then you are mūḍhā, narādhama." He says that. He says that.

Dr. Patel: No, that is not... I mean, you are too harsh.

Prabhupāda: Why harsh? I am quoting Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante... (BG 7.15).

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā, no... Final śāstras are the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Then don't accept Bhagavad-gītā.

Dr. Patel: We are accepting because it is the sarva ga...

Prabhupāda: Then don't accept the words. You accept Bhagavad-gītā...

Dr. Patel: How can you say, "Don't accept..."

Prabhupāda: No, no, here it is clearly said that "Anyone who is not surrendered to Me, he is a miscreant, rascal, mūḍhā, everything." That is the test.

Dr. Patel: What do you mean by surrendering? Surrendering to His will. "Are you surrendered to My will and fight? And, My boy, I have already killed them." That is what we read in the Eleventh Chapter. In that surrender to His will, God's will. That is surrender. (Hindi) (break)

Prabhupāda: That is your interpret... Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65).

Dr. Patel: Mām means...

Prabhupāda: Oh, mām means? Again mām means?

Dr. Patel: ...mām means will, Kṛṣṇa, who is representing the (indistinct) ātmā. He is outer Kṛṣṇa. Real Kṛṣṇa is the guru, not even the mūrti, the arca-pūjā.

Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation.

Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation. That is all intelligence of the world. And if you say no, well, I am prepared to own it. It's not right, sir, to be harsh on intelligence, sir. I am very sorry.

Prabhupāda: What is intelligence? Mūḍhā?

Dr. Patel: Intelligence is given by God and...

Prabhupāda: If one is a mūḍhā, where is intelligence? Why shall I give him the credit of intelligence? He is a mūḍhā. One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhā. Number one. (Indian\ men arguing in background) There is no intelligence. One who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he has no intelligence. (break) (end)