740615 - Conversation B - Paris
Yogeśvara: This gentleman is Mr. Tran-Van-Kha, the president of...
Pṛthu Putra: Mrs. Basti (sp?), she is the president of the Society of Buddhists in France. And,...
Guest (1): Thomas Dhu (?).
Prabhupāda: Sit down.
Pṛthu Putra: He's the president, (indistinct) honor of honors. Mr. Tran-Van-Kha was ambassador from Vietnam...
Prabhupāda: Vietnam.
Pṛthu Putra: ...in America twenty years ago, and he's now president of the society of Buddhists in France.
Prabhupāda: If... Vietnam (indistinct)? No?
Yogeśvara: Vietnam what? Well, they say.
Prabhupāda: So Vietnam, they profess Buddhist religion?
Pṛthu Putra: (translates into French)
Guest (1): (French)
Pṛthu Putra: Eighty per cent.
Prabhupāda: So the Buddhist religion so far we know, they are nonviolent.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Guest (1): (French)
Pṛthu Putra: This gentleman added tolerance.
Prabhupāda: Tolerance. If one is nonviolent, he must learn tolerance.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: We pray Lord Buddha: Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. "My Lord, You, for the time being, You are decrying the Vedic authority."
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic rituals. Śruti means Vedas. It is learned by hearing. Why He decried the Vedic rituals? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. You are so much compassionate by seeing animals sacrificed. Animal Killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. Ghātam means killing, so He wanted to stop this animal killing, sinful life. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. My Lord, You have appeared now as Lord Buddha, I offer my respectful obeisances unto you.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: Our... I think picture is there. Lord Buddha's picture.
Yogeśvara: In the Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not Bhagavad-gītā.
Yogeśvara: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, back side, the daśāvatāra. (indistinct)
Pṛthu Putra: (Explains in French the picture in Second Canto)
Prabhupāda: He was Hindu in the beginning. Come on. He was Prince, then He become renounced and He was known as Lord Buddha. So Lord Buddha also started His system for stopping animal killing. Lord Jesus also said, "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately the animal killing is not stopped. We are therefore teaching our followers: no meat-eating, so that if people stop meat-eating, automatically animal killing will be stopped. According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex, another meat-eating, another intoxication, and another gambling. So at least the brāhmaṇas , the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society they must be sinless. Then the human society will make nice progress. In the Bhagavad gītā it is stated: yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas.
yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
tat tad evetaro janaḥ
sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
BG 3.21
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: Ācarati.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Yogeśvara: What is second line?
Prabhupāda: Sa yat pramāṇam kurute. In the 'yad' you did not find?
Yogeśvara: Y-a-d?
Prabhupāda: Yes, y-a-d. Yad yad.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas.
Prabhupāda: Mmm.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa:
yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
tat tad evetaro janaḥ
sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
BG 3.21
Translation, "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."
Pṛthu Putra: (French) (pause)
Yogeśvara: When we were at your meeting a few weeks ago, there was, we felt very encouraged because there was very nice interest in how it was that these young western boys and girls had been able to take to this form of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: Last night, at the conference hall, this lady heard your lecture about how the soul reincarnates in different kinds of bodies. So she wants to know how is this possible because in the West, our understanding is that the animal forms do not possess a soul.
Prabhupāda: How does..., she can prove that she does not, it does not possess a soul.
Pṛthu Putra: She just doesn't understand. She does not say that. She does not understand.
Prabhupāda: No. She admits man has got soul, and animal has not soul.
Yogeśvara: See, what she says this is the traditional western idea.
Prabhupāda: But that idea is wrong.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: She was open to receive a more detailed explanation of the process.
Prabhupāda: First of all, let us see what are the symptoms of having soul.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: See, you can come here. Let her come.
Yogeśvara: Ask the lady to have a better seat.
Prabhupāda: Come.
Pṛthu Putra: See, there she has a seat.
Prabhupāda: Never mind, we can sit down here. Bring that chair.
Devotee: Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Yogeśvara: Sylvie (?) has a question.
Lady (2): I want to ask you. What does it (indistinct) when you, when there's talk of this religion of Kṛṣṇa. Is it before Christ or more?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Yogeśvara: This, the question of religion, did it come before Christ or before Buddha?
Prabhupāda: Yes, 5,000 years ago.
Lady (2): Yes, before.
Prabhupāda: 5,000 years.
Pṛthu Putra: (translates into French)
Lady (2): 5,000 years, eh?
Prabhupāda: This is now. Before that, this was spoken some millions of years ago to the Sun-god. You find out that verse, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam BG 4.1 .
Yogeśvara: Four, one.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Fourth Chapter.
Pṛthu Putra:
śrī bhagavān uvāca
imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāha
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
BG 4.1
(French)
Prabhupāda: So, if you take the calculation of Manu, Manu lives for 72,000 of yugas. One yuga is 4,300,000 of years.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: 4,300,000 years, one yuga.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: Multiply by 72. So that is the age of Manu. So, at least so many years before, Bhagavad-gītā was spoken to Manu's father, Sūrya. Sūrya, the Sun-god.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: Sun-god. So how many millions?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: About 120,000,000 years ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: So this philosophy was spoken 300 millions of years ago. And then again, He spoke 5,000 years ago. This is the history of Bhagavad-gītā. Now, your question. You say that animal has no soul, is it not?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: That a man has soul, you admit?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: Generally in the West it is admitted that the man possesses a soul and not the animals.
Prabhupāda: So why this difference? What difference you find in animal from the man?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: She says it is only the body that is different.
Prabhupāda: Only body difference? The man who is there has got body different. The, the Africans, they have got different body. And the Europeans have different body. There are so many men. The aborigines have got different body. So there so many men, human also.
Yogeśvara: So then that is not the real difference?
Prabhupāda: So what is the real difference, that I want to explain.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: So what is her reply?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: Suppose a child has a different body...
Lady (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: This young lady suggests that the animals do have a soul, and that they also pass from body to body, and perhaps ultimately can come to the human form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the explanation. You are right.
Guest (2): (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the evolution was already before, because in the vegetables is already this process of evolution of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Every living entity has soul. The body is just like the dress, just like you are sitting here under different dresses, but that does not mean we are different. That is stated in the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā: vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. Find out this, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya BG 2.22 .
Yogeśvara: Second Chapter.
Prabhupāda: You can take it. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya, navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi.
Yogeśvara:
vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya
navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi
tathā śarīrāṇi vihāya jīrṇāny
anyāni saṁyāti navāni dehī
BG 2.22
(French) "As a person put on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."
Prabhupāda: This is the point. Just like I've already changed. I was a child, so small. Where is that body? That is no longer existing, But still I remember that I had the body. So I changed that body so many times. Similarly, when this body will be useless, I change to another body. This is conclusion. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā.
Yogeśvara: (French)
dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
BG 2.13
(French) "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupāda: So, not only the animals. The trees, the plants, the insects, the birds, the bees, the aquatic animal: fish. Everyone has got soul. So anything, which has got life symptom, it is due to soul and so long the soul is there the change of body takes place. A child born, if it is dead, the change of body does not take place. You cannot understand?
Lady (2): No.
Prabhupāda: You have got now a different body, but you had a body like a child, so you cannot understand this? Why is that? Even a child can understand. You were also sometimes a body like this young girl. You do not believe that?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: She says she can recollect.
Prabhupāda: No, but who recollects? The soul. The body is changed. The body is changed, but the soul is the same and therefore she can recollect.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: She says there is an example of the worm that turns into a butterfly. It changes body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, she is right.
Lady (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: (French) Do you have any questions?
Guest (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says there is an example that a flower grows, and when it dies it gives its perfume to God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, very good idea. Therefore, everyone can dedicate his energy to God. And that is called bhakti.
Guest (4): (French)
Yogeśvara: Is the sun to be considered a representation of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, every..., everyone is representation of God. Sun is more powerful representation. You are also representation of God. The God is also a living being. That is said in the dictionary, Oxford Dictionary. God means, "Supreme Being." So we are all beings, and God is the Supreme Being. We are limited by our power. God is unlimited by His power.
Lady (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: When we say Kṛṣṇa, are we speaking about God or an incarnation of God? How to define it?
Prabhupāda: No, God Himself.
Lady (4): (French)
Yogeśvara: Then what is the meaning of the word ātmā?
Prabhupāda: Ātmā means also God. Ātmā means this body. Ātmā means this mind. Ātmā means the soul, and ātmā means also God. Ātmā means the active principle which is working. Just like in you the ātmā is there, therefore your body is moving. Similarly, the active principle of the whole cosmic manifestation is God.
Guest (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: What is the meaning of the different cakras?
Prabhupāda: Different?
Yogeśvara: Cakra, cakras.
Prabhupāda: Cakra?
Yogeśvara: Cakras.
Prabhupāda: That is yogic process. Those who are trying to find out the Supreme from the body, for them the different cakras mean the active principle, how He is working in different places. From the abdomen to the heart, then here, then here, then here. Ṣaṭ-cakra, six cakras. That is yogic system.
Guest (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: Do we have a meaning, do we have a definition for the third eye?
Prabhupāda: Humm?
Yogeśvara: The third eye.
Prabhupāda: Third eye. The future. Future.
Yogeśvara: Future?
Prabhupāda: Past, present and future.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: There is a philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that you meditate on some third eye, and this opens up into the..., some spiritual realization, a mystical realization. It is very popular.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Between the two eyebrows, that is said, explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhruvor madhye..., ante kāle ca mām...
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: That's Eight Chapter, I think, bhruvor madhye. Eighth Chapter? Hmm. Is it the Eighth Chapter?
Yogeśvara: That is the Eighth Chapter, text 21, 22.
Prabhupāda: Ten. Read.
Pṛthu Putra:
prayāṇa-kāle manasā 'calena
bhaktyā yukto yoga-balena caiva
bhruvor madhye prāṇam āveśya samyak
sa taṁ paraṁ puruṣam upaiti divyam
(French translation) "One who, at the time of death, fixes his life air between the eyebrows and in full devotion engages himself in remembering the Supreme Lord, will certainly attain to the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
Prabhupāda: This is bhruvor madhye.
Guest (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says: today, is it wise to practice this kind of meditation?
Prabhupāda: Useless. They cannot. It takes very, very, long time to get perfection. Vālmīki Muni got perfection in 60,000 years. Oh, Sixth Chapter. Read this, Arjuna uvāca.
Yogeśvara:
arjuna uvāca
yo 'yaṁ yogas tvayā proktaḥ
sāmyena madhusūdana
etasyāhaṁ na paśyāmi
cañcalatvāt sthitiṁ sthirām
(French translation) "Arjuna said, O Madhusūdana, the system of yoga which you have summarized appears impractical and unendurable to me, for the mind is restless and unsteady."
Prabhupāda: Yoga, this yoga system means controlling the mind. But 5,000 years ago a person like Arjuna, who had his friend Kṛṣṇa, he is saying that it is not possible for him. And at the present moment people are so degraded—not in the position of Arjuna—how they can get success? He is not ordinary man. Such a great warrior belonged to the royal family, and so qualified that he could talk with Kṛṣṇa personally, he says that it is not possible. So, do you think that you are..., become more than Arjuna that you can get success?
Pṛthu Putra: Translating into French.
Prabhupāda: Read this second verse, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham.
Yogeśvara:
cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa
pramāthi balavad dṛḍham
tasyāhaṁ nigrahaṁ manye
vāyor iva suduṣkaram
BG 6.34
(French translation) "For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Kṛṣṇa, and to subdue it is, it seems to me, more difficult than controlling the wind."
Prabhupāda: So Arjuna is presenting his inability, and what we are?
Guest (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, in history there was the mystery of the sphinxes of Egypt, do these sphinxes carry any significance?
Prabhupāda: Hum?
Yogeśvara: Is the pyramid and the sphinx in Egypt civilization are any mystic significance?
Pṛthu Putra: It's a great relevance for the Egyptian civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like samādhi. Samādhi, when you become samādhi, then if you're, I mean to say, put within the earth, you do not die.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Even if you are put in the earth you do not die.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: This is called kumbhaka-yoga.
Guest (3): Kunbha?
Prabhupāda: Kumbhaka. So this is practiced by the frogs also. So if you get success, you get success like the frog.
Lady (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: Shall I tell them that story about the frog?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: That means the frog was buried at least for 10,000 years.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: Read the last paragraph of the yoga system: yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā.
Pṛthu Putra:
yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gatenāntarātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
BG 6.47
(French translation) "And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." [break] (end)