760515 - Morning Walk - Honolulu
Prabhupāda: God created the soul and the matter also. Has he discussed anything?
Prabhupāda: God created everything. God created soul and the matter.
Hayagrīva: The individual soul.
Hayagrīva: Well, then, how is the individual soul eternal if it has a beginning?
Prabhupāda: No, we say there is no beginning. As God has no beginning, soul has no beginning.
Hayagrīva: No beginning, yes.
Prabhupāda: Na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). That is the distinction between matter and soul.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They counter that if God is all-powerful, He can do anything. So why not He can create a soul, and that soul can then be eternal from that point?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christian may argue that God is all-powerful, so God has created the soul, and from that point the soul is eternal.
Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal, we admit.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But only from that point, not in the past.
Prabhupāda: Not in the past?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because according to Biblical philosophy you only have one lifetime in this world.
Prabhupāda: Then? Who goes to heaven?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Persons who adopt the principles.
Prabhupāda: And if one life, then who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very few go to heaven.
Prabhupāda: Anyone, if he goes to hell or heaven, then why do you say "one life"? Then another life. Otherwise what is the meaning of going to heaven or hell?
Hari-śauri: No. They get one chance to do good or bad, and then finish.
Hari-śauri: They get one chance: do good or bad. Then you either go to heaven or to hell. But you don't get another chance.
Prabhupāda: But if he goes heaven means there is another life. How do you say "one life"? This is defective philosophy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "But this is what God has said in the Bible; therefore we must accept."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "This is what God has said in the Bible; therefore we must accept."
Prabhupāda: God, if He says something unreasonable, how it can be accepted? You say "one life." Then who goes to the next life? That is defective. Why do you not talk back? (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cannot explain why some people are born in a more pious setting and some people are born in a more impious setting.
Prabhupāda: Because they do not know the karma. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). According to one's activities, pious and impious, he gets the next birth. That is quite reasonable. But they do not believe in karma. When I was student in Scottish Churches College, so we had to attend class, half an hour, Bible. So the Dr. Urquhart, he did... The argument was: "So if karma is there and I am suffering for my karma, who is the witness?" But because they do not know that the witness is God.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He asked that question?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he asked that question, philosopher. (break) Paramātmā... They say "Holy Ghost." What is that Holy Ghost?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Holy Ghost is supposed to give knowledge to persons who have embraced the teaching.
Prabhupāda: Therefore He is seeing what you are doing. So according to your action, the Holy Ghost gives you another birth. (break) ...sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati. (break) ...dictating everyone's heart, and He is observing. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...contends that if a person does not become fully aware in this lifetime of God, then they don't have another chance, and they are condemned to hell for eternity.
Prabhupāda: The hell or heaven doesn't matter. The next life is there. How you say "one life"? That is defective theory. Therefore this philosophy cannot be accepted. Anything which is defective is not to be accepted.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply dogma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...is rejected. That is Vedic process.
Hari-śauri: Actually, there's so many different understandings that the Christians have of the same thing. They all have different type of philosophy.
Hayagrīva: No, Christ never said that. Christ never said you only have one life.
Prabhupāda: So that is real philosophy. That is real philosophy.
Hayagrīva: This is the... All of this evolved from the Church fathers.
Prabhupāda: That is all defective, unscrupulous.
Rādhā-vallabha: (break) ...come up to us on saṅkīrtana, and they are smoking a cigarette, and they say, "Do you accept Jesus Christ?"
Rādhā-vallabha: They say, "You cannot be successful unless you accept Jesus Christ like us." But they were smoking.
Prabhupāda: We accept. Rather, you do not accept. Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." We strictly observe that, but you kill. You are not a Christian.
Hari-śauri: "But that's just an ideal, the Ten Commandments. You're not expected to follow."
Prabhupāda: No, that is your explanation. (laughter) That is your concoction. (break) ...take it. As soon as you disobey Ten Commandments, you are not a Christian. You are heathen. (break) And the thing is that religious faith should not be discussed on philosophy, because everyone has got some..., his own concocted faith. That is not philosophy. Faith is different. "I believe," "You believe," "I do not believe"—that is not philosophy. (break) ...philosophy in Bhagavad-gītā that asmin dehe... Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13), there is soul. This is philosophy. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental concoction. So both of them should be combined. Then it is perfect. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...can be given, though, that man's logic is so tiny, pea brain, and God's logic is so great, so how can actually man discuss the logic of God?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is given that God is infinitely great.
Prabhupāda: Then don't discuss. Sleep. If you cannot understand God's logic and God's philosophy, then don't discuss. Stop discussion.
Rādhā-vallabha: Jewish people say that you can't chant the name of God because it is too sacred.
Prabhupāda: Yes, too sacred, that's... Actually that's a fact. And those who are too sinful, they cannot chant. (break) ...these ten kinds of offenses. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: ...that God has put the world here for us to enjoy, so we will please Him by enjoying it. (break)
Prabhupāda: However, you go at four o'clock to your working place and come at night, ten. Is that enjoyment?
Rādhā-vallabha: But on the weekend we can go to the beach. And we can eat whatever we want.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you can go to hell also. Different thing... (break) ...jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). That is there. If you are suffering from disease, where is enjoyment? Mental discomfort, bodily discomfort. You are taking thrice pills for tranquillity. Is that enjoyment?
Rādhā-vallabha: They say you have to take the good with the bad.
Prabhupāda: This nonsense enjoyment. Fool's paradise. For keeping the mind in tranquillity he is taking four times pills. For sleeping, he is taking pill. Does he enjoy that?
Rādhā-vallabha: By suffering you can get a deeper appreciation...
Prabhupāda: Then what is enjoyment? Suffer. Then why it is called enjoyment? By suffering you can... (indistinct—much static from here on)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They claim that Christ died for them, and do as (indistinct). And then he walked out (indistinct). So they think he is very special, because this has not happened to anyone else. And this can happen to everyone who accepts the same...
Prabhupāda: We say nobody dies. What did Christ (indistinct)? ...that takes birth never dies.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the objection?
Rādhā-vallabha: They don't catch fish for eating. They catch them just to have fun catching the fish. Then they let them go. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...Old Testament, there's a statement that anyone who sees God will die. So how is it possible for anyone to see God and still remain (indistinct) about the experience?
Prabhupāda: "(indistinct) that you live and see Me"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bible it says that...
Prabhupāda: In the Bible it says that God is omnipotent.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He can make one so he can see Him.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? You cannot see Him. God may not give you that benediction. But if He gives somebody benediction, "Yes, you see and believe," where is the objection?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It appears that they have created a philosophy or a dogma to keep people in darkness.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is better not to discuss. Discussing, waste of time. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: Patrick says that Hare Kṛṣṇa is the most dangerous organization, and it should be stopped by any means.
Rādhā-vallabha: Ted Patrick. This is the man that convinces devotees to leave the movement.
Hari-śauri: The deprogrammer.
Rādhā-vallabha: He kidnaps them. In his book he says that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is very, very dangerous, and he urges everyone to cooperate together to stop this movement.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's in an advertisement to parents, because he gets money from the parents. The parents give a lot of money because the young people join our movement.
Rādhā-vallabha: He describes how we had one devotee inside a house. Many devotees came and called, chanting "Haribol! Haribol!" He said that it was terrifying. (laughter) He once kidnapped a devotee in Los Angeles while he was on saṅkīrtana, and he was telling him how he was going to deprogram him from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and this boy said, "It is impossible." And Patrick said, "I have done so many of these people." And the boy said, "But this is the first time you've tried to do it to a book distributor." And after some time he just gave up, and the boy left, came back to the temple. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...different philosophies and religions are very, very trivial compared to the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct)
Hari-śauri: No mental concoction. Just fact. (break) (end)