750330 - Interview - Mayapur
(Interview with a German Girl and Devotees)
Haṁsadūta: So you can begin.
Girl: (speaking in German)
Haṁsadūta: She makes a suggestion that we should do two things: one, to ask questions about Māyāpur as a significant holy place, not only for the devotees, but for the people, karmīs, who have never even heard of Māyāpur . . . (German)
Haṁsadūta: And she says the second aspect of her questioning will be the practical side of it, like feeding the people here, like feeding the people here, what we are actually doing, like building this house, feeding the people in the neighboring towns, or teaching them English or teaching them how to cultivate the land, like that.
Prabhupāda: Our . . . you take answer one after another.
Haṁsadūta: Yes . . .
Prabhupāda: Not put all the questions.
Haṁsadūta: So you can begin.
Prabhupāda: Our ideal is that we have got this body, and there are some bodily necessities. That is the prime necessities. So we do not neglect these necessities of the body. But our culture is spiritual culture. Generally, people, being disturbed by the bodily necessities, they do not inquire about the spiritual identity. Actually this is the distinction between human life and animal life. (Hindi with Indian lady) (break) Our real purpose of this mission is to educate people about his spiritual identity. All people, they are misguided by the idea . . . (aside) Don't do . . . that he is this body, everyone, all over the world, especially in the Western countries.
Prabhupāda: Because rascal fools, they have no knowledge, just like cats and dogs, animals. Do you admit this?
Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that, "I am this body." That is rascaldom. They have not even this primary knowledge of spiritual identity that he is not this body, although he has got very practical experience that a child is getting another body as a boy, the boy is getting another body as young man. Suppose I am . . . I know I had a body of a child. I still remember, when I was a child, six month old, I remember how I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister. She was knitting, and I was seeing. Very vividly I remember. Now, where is that body? Tell me. Where is that body? Now sometimes I think that "I was jumping as a boy. And now I have to take the stick." So where is that, my jumping body? Tell me.
Girl: The body is . . .
Prabhupāda: That body is no longer existing.
Prabhupāda: Is it not a fact?
Girl: I must change my body.
Prabhupāda: Change. So the body has changed. But I remember that I had such a body. Therefore I am different from the body. I wish to possess again that body, to jump, but I cannot. This is the condition of my life. By nature's law I am getting one body and I am changing to another body. This is going on. So as in this life I have got this experience, that I have changed my body, similarly, the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa says that, "When this body will be finished, you'll get another body," very simple thing. But these rascals do not understand. All these rascals, they do not understand. There is practical experience, and there is authoritative statement, and still, they do not know, and still, they are big, big professors, big, big learned scholar, doctor, scientist, philosopher. What is this?
Girl: No knowledge.
Girl: No knowledge
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Haṁsadūta: No knowledge.
Girl: No knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is the . . . that means everyone is in ignorance, and they are passing on as doctors, philosophers, scientist. This is the condition of the present civilization. Fools and rascals are passing on as doctor of philosophy, doctor of knowledge. First of all, you have to judge this.
Girl: But there are many gurus . . .
Girl: They think . . . what is . . .?
Haṁsadūta: She says there are many gurus, and many people go there because it has become popular. So what do they say?
Prabhupāda: I do not bring in any guru. We are talking between ourselves. Don't bring any guru. Just talk as common men. So whether you agree to this point?
Haṁsadūta: (to girl) Understand?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of guru. It is a question of common sense.
Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing, that "I am changing my body, and similarly, I'll change this body." This should be understood by my present circumstances of life, and it is confirmed by the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa. Knowledge by authority and knowledge by experience, both things are there. And still, the rascal do not understand. Knowledge is gathered by experience, and knowledge is gathered from the authority. Just like I ask my father, "What is this?" Father says: "This is bell." So this is knowledge. I get it from my father. And by experience, when I push it, it is ringing. So understand, "This is bell." So two sources of knowledge: by practical experience and by authority.
Girl: I must believe what my father says.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have to. I have to take knowledge from my mother, from my father. That is the beginning of knowledge. Intelligent boy asks father, "What is this?" and father explains. Mother gives the knowledge, "Here is your father." So it is from authority. Otherwise, how you can experience who is your father? How do you get? Can you experiment who is your father?
Girl: Yes. I ask my mother.
Prabhupāda: That's it. That is authority. That is not experiment. That is authority. Therefore knowledge by authority and knowledge by experience. So I am changing my body. You experience, "I was child. I was boy. I was young man. I was middle-aged. Now I am old man." This is experience. And the authority says: "As you have changed this body, similarly, you change this body and get another body." This is authority. Then where is the lack of knowledge? So knowledge is already there in two ways: by experience and by authority.
Girl: This life means that I must take a better body in this life.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Haṁsadūta: What is the question about the body?
Girl: No, not a question.
Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand that we. . . there are many sources of knowledge, but the summary is that knowledge gathered by experience and knowledge gathered by . . . through authority. So both knowledge is helping me about the change of body. So how can you deny it? And still, if you remain ignorant, then you are foolish. How you can say there is no life after death? I am giving you evidence by experience and by authority. Then mostly, perhaps you have got experience of the . . . in the, especially in the Western countries . . . Here, if you ask ordinary cultivator, he'll believe, "Yes, there is life." They . . . they are philosopher. "Yes, in my past life I did something wrong. Therefore I am suffering. And if I do wrong, I'll suffer in my next life." You'll get this knowledge even from the cultivator. This is India.
Girl: India has the knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is born in India, he has got immediately this knowledge. He immediately knows there is God. That is the advantage of taking birth in India. What it will take hundreds of years to understand, they understand it by the birth. You have seen, so many thousands of people came. So the . . . a part from this, the whole world, they do not believe that there is soul, and after annihilation of this body, we shall get another body, another chapter of life. They do not believe it.
Haṁsadūta: Then, she says, why do the philosophers not study in India?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Then again, the same question. Because they are rascals.
Prabhupāda: Because they are rascals, they are speculating. They do not understand how knowledge is gathered. This is our charge. You refute it.
Guest (Indian man): Also, just one sentence, Prabhupāda. A lot of Indians, they know they are taking body again and again. They are taking the body again and again after birth. Why they are committing again and again sins, and which mode of nature . . .?
Prabhupāda: Because they do not know how to stop this process. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can stop this. But these . . . again rascals. They'll not take the method. Kṛṣṇa said that, "If you simply try to understand Me," janma, "why I appear and why I come here and work," karma . . . "they are divine." The divine nature of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance and activities, if one can understand, then immediately he becomes free from this process. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). But the rascals will not do that. They'll misunderstand Kṛṣṇa. They'll misdescribe Kṛṣṇa. They'll think, "Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man." Gandhi will say that "I don't think there was any person living as Kṛṣṇa." And he is mahātmā. These things are going on. Mahātmā is proving himself as the greatest rascal. This is your mahātmā, and what to speak of the durātmā. So you are being guided by these . . .
Guest: A lot of people in . . . before I came to your temple in Toronto, in our family nobody is eating the meat. When I went West, I got it some, this point, and I was misguided by the different philosophies. So lot of misguiding and misled . . .
Prabhupāda: That is my rascaldom. Why I shall be misguided? I must know who is the right person.
Guest: They are fallen from. A lot of people in India, and New Delhi they have all misguided and misleading their own, adjusted their own . . .
Prabhupāda: I have to gather knowledge from my superior. (Bengali) You came last night?
Guest: Ah, no, last evening.
Prabhupāda: Oh, last evening? What is your . . .?
Guest: He told to come at nine o'clock.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. What do you want to say?
Guest: I like . . . I like to join in the special . . .
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are welcome. You stay here with the devotees and learn.
Guest: I stayed in Madras for a month also.
Prabhupāda: So you are staying here now?
Guest: I'd like to stay
Prabhupāda: Yes, stay. Make arrangement that he can stay. That's all.
Haṁsadūta: You can stay. You can stay with us and . . .
Prabhupāda: As other devotees are staying, you can stay.
Guest: But, er . . .
Guest: Akṣayānanda Swami told me to come to Madras.
Prabhupāda: So go to Madras. Whatever you like. That's all.
Haṁsadūta: She says: "Therefore does it mean that the solution has to come from India?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Solution has to come from Kṛṣṇa. The book is there, solution, Bhagavad-gītā. If you take it and practice it, the solution of all problems is there.
Prabhupāda: So you take any problem and find out the solution from Bhagavad-gītā.
Girl: In the beginning it's little hard. (German)
Haṁsadūta: She says in the beginning it appears a little difficult to give up everything, but day by day, it becomes . . .
Prabhupāda: Where is the question of everything, giving up? It is to understand. First of all understand that what you are.
Haṁsadūta: (to girl) Understand?
Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that you are not this body. You are something beyond this body.
Girl: (German) . . . we have some what we don't need . . .
Haṁsadūta: She says we do not require as much as we like to believe we do. We do not require the things that we believe we require.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of this?
Haṁsadūta: It means, it means apartment, furniture, money, family, and so many things. She says . . . she means that we don't require all these things.
Prabhupāda: I don't say that. I have never said that.
Prabhupāda: But only for furniture and apartment, if you forget yourself and act in such a way then next life you become a dog and lie on the street, then what is the use of your furniture? You are getting next life. First of all, you understand that, that "This is not the end of my life. I am eternal. I am changing my body." So it is described as dress. Now you may be dressed like a royal king. And next dress may be different. "May be" means it must be. And for the examples of the dresses—so many living entities. So you must be cautious that "What kind of dress I am going to have next?" (break) Where is that science? Where is that school, college? If you remain only confident that, "I'll go on with this dress perpetually," that is not the fact. You'll have to change your dress. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But we have no knowledge that, "What kind of dress I am going to have?" It is a fact. I have already changed dress. I had a child dress. I had a boy's dress. I had a young man dress. Now I have got old man's dress. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This also, you'll have to change." So why I am not enquiring, "What kind of dress I am going to have?" and "How I am changing this dress?" So young man doesn't want to become old man. That is a fact. But if a young man says, "No, no, I don't want old man's dress," will it be accepted? Nature will say: "No, you must accept." Where is the remedy for this? Why these rascals do not understand that, "I am fully under the control of nature's law, and I am declaring free. I am becoming philosopher"? He's fully under the control of nature's law. You have read Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmaṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You are fully under the control of the laws of nature, and still you are thinking, "I am independent. There is no superior controller." What is this nonsense? Hmm? What is the answer?
Haṁsadūta: (to girl) What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: Is it not foolish? You appreciate that you are under the control of material nature, and still, you are thinking independent. What is this nonsense?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? I am in the prison house, and the prison superintendent is controlling me fully, and if I say: "I don't care for anyone," what is this nonsense? Even in ordinary life, if somebody says: "I don't care for government laws. I shall do whatever I like," is it very good sense? Similarly, you are fully under the control of material nature, and you are declaring independence. You should, rather, consider that, "Why I have been put under the control of material nature? I don't want it. I don't want to be diseased, but why disease is forced upon me? I don't want to become old man. Why it is forced upon me? I don't want to die. Why death is forced upon me?" These should be the proper question. But instead of questioning this, he's thinking, "I am independent." How much foolish he is.
Haṁsadūta: So, she says, so the solution for the world is Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Therefore we are pushing on this movement, to make the rascals intelligent. That's all. The whole world is full of rascals, and we want to make them intelligent. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Girl: They should be told. (German)
Prabhupāda: When we call them rascals, they become angry. And actually they are rascals. They do not know the problems of life.
Haṁsadūta: So she . . . her next question is that in the last few days, approximately five hundred devotees have assembled here from all over the world. She says she knows that this is the birthplace of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, so therefore they have come. She knows that it is a holy place. She wants to know that even before Lord Caitanya's time, was it also considered to be a holy place?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is perpetually holy place, but it is known since the birthday of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Just wait one . . . (break) . . . the cat's and dog's body. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand that . . . that life is beyond this body. But in the human form of life one can understand. He has got such consciousness. So by nature's law, by evolution, we come to the human form of body to understand this. And if we do not utilize this knowledge for understanding our real identity, then we remain cats and dogs, and we become again cats and dogs. By nature's law I have been given this chance. If I do not utilize it properly, then again I become what I was before.
Haṁsadūta: One has to be sincere. One has to be sincere to understand this?
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of sincerity; it is the question of ignorance. If . . . if the father, mother, teacher, government does not know that how the people should be raised, then they remain in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Just like a . . . if the child . . . child is ignorant, but if he's not given the education . . .
Haṁsadūta: She says now in this movement a new generation is being raised up, the children that we have in our schools and in our movement.
Prabhupāda: There . . . therefore we are educating children even.
Girl: For the future
Prabhupāda: Yes, future generation. Because the so-called educational institutions, they have produced only fools and rascals.
Haṁsadūta: She says you cannot change the society? We want to produce a new society?
Prabhupāda: No new society. A new status of consciousness. We don't want to change anything. We want to change the consciousness, because they are in ignorance.
Haṁsadūta: She says it is a great service, or a help, for the world.
Haṁsadūta: She says she has noticed here that if a new person comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can understand what he can actually do. For example, she was very impressed by the dance troupe last night, and on the night before, the devotees. She's realized that they are dancing. She did not realize before that one can do just about anything for Kṛṣṇa. And she says this place immediately gives that impression, that anyone, in any station, he can be engaged.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are very intelligent.
Girl: Oh. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: We can engage anyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It does not depend on particular education, status of life. It doesn't matter. Ahaitukī. The exact Sanskrit word is ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Ahaitukī means without any cause and without being checked. If anyone wants to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no impediment in the whole world which can check him.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. She says if a person wants to give the best of himself, it is probably best to give that which he has learned throughout his life, to do it for Kṛṣṇa.
Haṁsadūta: She says, now, to your books, that, er . . . I can answer this question for her later, if she wants to know. How many books are already finished, and how much is more to come in the future?
Prabhupāda: In fu . . . there is no limit. But I wish to write at least sixty books.
Girl: (German) The whole Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam? More?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have already finished . . .
Haṁsadūta: Four cantos.
Prabhupāda: Four cantos. And there are eight cantos more.
Haṁsadūta: She says that . . . she says she wants to know if you think it would be worthwhile for her to write a book, something similar to the one that was written in America. It was called The Strange World of the Hare Krishna People. You've heard of it?
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm.
Haṁsadūta: But she says serious, not in the way it was written by her, because she is a journalist, and this is her natural inclination, and she has been here now since the beginning, and she is noting everything. So it is her natural tendency. Whether you think it is worthwhile for her to write a little book for the public?
Prabhupāda: It is . . . it will be great service, provided you write nicely the right things.
Girl: To help you?
Prabhupāda: Yes. People are in ignorance, ninety-nine percent.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Entire, whole world. They are going on. They are fighting on this bodily concept of life. So, apart from fighting . . . of course, you cannot stop fighting. But at least a section of men must be in right knowledge. So what I say, that in the Western countries, they, even the very high, topmost educationists, they also do not believe that there is life after death. Is it not? Am I right or not?
Prabhupāda: So just see how much ignorance is prevailing. So if you can dissipate this ignorance, darkness . . .
Haṁsadūta: So that . . . she says, yes, if one thinks in this way, then life has no sense, that there's no sense to it, if one does not believe in a life beyond this life. Then it is senseless.
Girl: (German) Then it's no life after, after death.
Haṁsadūta: She says, therefore, therefore they feel anything can be done in this life because in next life there is nothing.
Prabhupāda: Nothing. That I talked with big professors. They say. They say like that. Here also, the so-called Indian leaders, they are also thinking like that.
Haṁsadūta: She says she has heard that in the universities in America it is being taught about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In some of the universities Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being taught.
Girl: It's a beginning.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Just like Temple University, they have got this Nectar of Devotion. And many universities, they are studying Kṛṣṇa book, Bhāgavatam. They are gradually accepting. At least the professors, teaching staff, they are accepting. They are studying as one side of views, not seriously.
Haṁsadūta: They speculate still.
Haṁsadūta: She says it appears that one has to become again as a child.
Haṁsadūta: She means . . . she says that it appears to understand this teaching one has to become again as a child.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If he does not forget what he has learned, then it will be difficult.
Haṁsadūta: She says . . . she asks whether it will come to a fight with the demons and the devotees like Arjuna, or is this question—in the future, she means—or is this question not important?
Prabhupāda: The fight is already going on. You cannot stop fighting.
Girl: (German) We must chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Girl: We must chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the simplest way. That is the simplest way. If one sincerely chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes enlightened.
Haṁsadūta: She says this is the main thing that Lord Caitanya has given the people in this age—a simple process to approach God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the highest perfection, to reach the highest perfection. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's special gift.
Haṁsadūta: She has a conclusive question. She asks what can we do to help the, (German), the whole movement to continue to expand.
Prabhupāda: What help?
Haṁsadūta: What . . . what she can do.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Your, this Western countrymen, they are intelligent. So intelligently enlighten them. By intelligent statements, make a peaceful revolution.
Haṁsadūta: Right. Yeah. Okay?
Prabhupāda: As these boys are changing their habits and their ideas, so similarly, it can be done to the mass of people.
Haṁsadūta: (to girl) Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (aside:) Stop that also. (break) . . . kṛpana bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). This gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. Otherwise, there is no need of gṛhastha life. But everything can be used to make the best use of a bad bargain. That is another thing. Actually, to become free from all responsibility and anxieties, if one remains a brahmacārī, that is very good. That is the recommendation of śāstra. But if you cannot . . . because the material world is going on under sex impulse. By nature the sex impulse is there. He will agitate you. But if you can control by becoming a rigid brahmacārī, that is better. But it is difficult. Therefore this concession is given. But what is this concession? The concession is sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is an itching sensation. And after satisfying the itching sensation, there are so many responsibilities and troubles. But tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ. Those who are kṛpanāḥ, does not know how to utilize this life . . .
So once I have taken to sex life, and I am suffering so many after . . . of course, now to stop the suffering, they have invented this contraceptive method. He knows there is suffering, but they, in order to avoid this suffering, they're taking this contraceptive method. And that is also suffering. That he does not know. Bhrun hatyā. Contraceptive method means killing the embryo. So that is also another sinful. He's taking so much responsibilities. So either you take contraceptive method or do not take contraceptive method . . . if you do not take, then the child is born; then you have to take responsibility. Now they're killing the child, in this way becoming implicated. But if one is trained up to remain a rigid brahmacārī, there is no trouble. Therefore it is said:
- tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ
- kaṇḍutivān manasi yaḥ viṣayeta dhīraḥ
- (SB 7.9.45)
I know if I satisfy this itching sensation, I'll be put into so much trouble after it, so if one is dhīra, little sober, he'll better suffer this itching sensation than to take the responsibility. This is the śāstric injunction.
Guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this . . . (indistinct) . . . in the world I have come to know mostly, I have never seen any, except the word is a true couple. They are married means sex life . . .
Guest: Except devotees, which after contacting, I haven't seen any . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, the whole world is going on, married life means legalized prostitution. That is their philosophy. So therefore they are, in the Western world, they do not like to marry. And this is also prostitution; that is also prostitution. So "Let us go on with our illegal prostitution. Why legal prostitution?" This is the philosophy. And that is the Freud philosophy. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Guest: Even now Indians, the same. I . . .
Prabhupāda: The Indians, European, doesn't matter. The whole human society is like that.
Haṁsadūta: His idea is why should we make this sex life so cumbersome by marriage?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Avoid it.
Haṁsadūta: It's a natural thing just to have sex.
Guest: You are following your principles, the four principles . . .
Prabhupāda: Avoid it. They are regularly advertising. I have seen in Dallas, "Topless, bottomless," like that.
Prabhupāda: They do not know. What can be done? Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti (BG 7.25). They do not know that behind everything there is a supreme power. He'll punish. "Never mind, we shall be punished." You'll become dog. "Oh, what is the wrong if I become a dog?" They say like that, "What is the wrong?" He thinks that "I'll get good facilities for sex. There will be no need of apartment. I'll save the rent. To become a dog and have sex life on the street, it is good facility." This is going on.
Guest: I have some few questions which I have come here to ask. Permit me to ask, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: What is that question? You can answer.
Guest: I came in your temple first time in 1970 in Toronto. And, that time, I was just like other Indians, what I think, but I . . . (end)