View source for Philosophy Discussion on The Evolutionists Thomas Huxley, Henri Bergson, and Samuel Alexander

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<div class="code">EVOLUTIONISTS.SYA</div>


''(Thomas Huxley, Henri Bergson, and Samuel Alexander)''

'''Śyāmasundara''': He wants to search out what is the pattern of evolution, how it will go in the future, and he says that because man has progressed from the instinctive stage to the intelligent stage, and then to the intuitive stage, that he will obtain eventually the immortal stage, that he will become...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is nice. That immortal stage is described in the Bhāgavatam, or the Bhagavad-gītā. Yad gatvā na nivartante ([[BG 15.6|BG 15.6]]). Progress means you go, go. Gamati iti gatiḥ, or progress. You go, go, go. So when you come to this śloka... (?) Therefore in the Vedas it is said, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Sūrayaḥ, means those who are learned, those who are advanced in knowledge. They are called sūrayaḥ. So they are always looking forward to the lotus feet of Viṣṇu. Just like modern scientists are going, trying to go to the moon planet, so when they start, they are looking forward (to) the moon planet. Similarly, those who are learned, they are simply looking forward to the lotus feet of Viṣṇu: "When I shall reach there?" That goal is there. They are not missing the goal. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. This is the Ṛg Veda mantra. They know their goal. But they have to reach still, yet to go there. Just like our Kṛṣṇa conscious people, they know what is the goal, Kṛṣṇa, Goloka Vṛndāvana. So this is the attempt, how to reach there, how to reach there. That's all. We are not blind, but these people are blind. They do not know what is the goal. By philosophizing, they simply mislead. That is explained in the Bhāgavata: andhā, a blind man is trying to lead other blind men. If you do not know, why you are philosophizing? Unless you have got the ideal goal for evolutionary progress, why you talk of these things? What do you think? Huh? So that is explained in the Bhāgavata. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās ([[SB 7.5.31|SB 7.5.31]]). Andhā. One blind man is trying to lead another blind man. So what is the use of such leading? You must have eyes; then you can ask other hundreds of blind men, "Please come behind me. I shall get you across." But if you have no eyes, then why you are asking others? Philosophizing.
[[File:Thomas Huxley.jpg|250px|thumb|left|alt=Thomas Huxley|link=|<div class="center">'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Henry_Huxley Thomas Henry Huxley] (1825 - 1895)'''</div>]]
'''Śyāmasundara''': It seems like these two philosophers have two different viewpoints. The first one, Huxley, said man can take nature into his own hand and mold his own evolution.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is nonsense.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Whereas this philosopher thinks that we should just..., that the vital force is guiding everyone and creating its own evolution, that we should just drift in the course of things and the vital force will determine history or will determine our future.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Vital force will determine. That is somewhat...

'''Śyāmasundara''': Without our doing, without anything of our doing.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Vital force must know how to make progress how to do it. Then he'll be... If he does not know how to do it, how it will be possible? Can you do anything? Suppose you are learning some mechanical business, can you do it without direction? You have to learn. You must get a teacher. So without teacher, that is not possible.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Just like the seasons. If we just place ourselves in the seasons, they take us toward something, towards  springtime.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's all right. But you cannot compare. The analogy is mistaken. The season is matter, material changes. But the evolution is not matter. There is spirit soul. He is making his evolution. So he has got independence. He can reject and accept. Just like yesterday we were talking... (plane overhead) ...Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up everything, just surrender unto Me," but because you are living entity, you can reject this proposal or accept this proposal. Not that blindly you have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. No. That is not possible. The proposal is there, but it is up to you to surrender or not to surrender. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says that "You do it." If it is automatically, then there was no need of Kṛṣṇa's saying, "Do it." It would have come automatically to the surrendering point. Not like that. They are mistaken in that. The living entity has got the right to accept or reject. So if he takes, he makes his progress, accepting the right path, then he comes to the goal. But if he rejects, he'll not reach the goal (?). That depends on him.
[[File:Henri Bergson.jpg|250px|thumb|left|alt=Henri Bergson|link=|<div class="center">'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Bergson Henri Bergson] (1859 - 1941)'''</div>]]
'''Śyāmasundara''': So this philosopher Bergson, he sees two types of morality. The "closed morality," which is the compulsive forms of behavior, which conform to prevailing convention or social pressure or tradition; static morality, one simply follows the tradition blindly.

'''Prabhupāda''': That can be changed according to the... Just like in some scriptures it is said that "Thou shall not kill." So the killing is ordinary thing there. But in some society killing is already prohibited by so much culture that they do not want to kill even an ant. So that depends on education of the particular society. It is not static, that "This will be like this." No. Not like that. "One man's food another man's poison." What is morality in one society, it may be immorality in another society.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. So the other type of morality he calls "open morality." This is determined by individuals in a dynamic way, blazing new trails, guided by...

'''Prabhupāda''': As soon as it is invented by individual men or society, this is all rascaldom. It has no value.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He calls it "the higher morality." Just like St. Paul or some great saint receives inspiration from God and he blazes a new trail to morality in a society.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is nice. Because he is God conscious, he can dictate what is real morality.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He's speaking of the case of St. Paul.

'''Prabhupāda''': So St. Paul, he's a sādhu. So our process is that: sādhu-guru-śāstra. We have to accept everything through saintly person, confirmed by the scripture, and described or explained by guru. Then it is perfect. The scriptures are already there, and we have to see how the scriptures are being followed by saintly persons. And if there is any difficulty, they should be explained by the spiritual master. Then it is perfect. Sādhu-guru-śāstra-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya. Scriptures you cannot understand directly. Then you have to see how the scriptural injunctions are being followed by saintly persons. Even if you cannot understand, then the spiritual master will explain to you.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And he sees also in the same way two types of religion. He sees the static religion and he calls this static religion "myth devised by human intelligence as a means of defense against the depressing experiences of life. Being fearful of the future, man attempts to combat his fate by constructing religious myths."

'''Prabhupāda''': Just that... Anything created by human being, that is not acceptable. We do not follow that principle. Because a human being is always imperfect. So we cannot take anything manufactured, myth, by any human being. We take directly from God. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam ([[SB 6.3.19|SB 6.3.19]]). The religious principles, they are given directly by God. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "This is religion: surrender unto Me." This is religion. It is not man-manufactured. Man is manufacturing, "Oh, this is my type of religion. It is Muhammadanism." "This is Hinduism." "This is Christianism." All these isms, they are imperfect, man-made. But this is perfect. This is perfect because it is given by God Himself. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat... ([[SB 6.3.19|SB 6.3.19]]). Very simple thing. "You surrender unto Me." That's all. So any religious system which leads the follower to this point, surrendering to God, that is religion. Otherwise bogus. Real religion is this, surrender to God. So any system of religion, it doesn't matter whether Hinduism, Christianism, Muhammadanism, if it teaches ultimately surrender to God, then that is perfect religion. Otherwise it is not religion.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that the opposite of static religion is dynamic religion. He says that this type of religion...

'''Prabhupāda''': Dynamic because he has no idea of God and God consciousness. He thinks it is dea..., static. But they can see practically. We are Kṛṣṇa conscious, how much activities we have got. Deny it. So he does not know what is God, what is religion, and he is philosopher. You see?

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that... He would probably call our type of religion dynamic religion.

'''Prabhupāda''': Dynamic, yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But there is also a type that is static religion.

'''Prabhupāda''': Static religion... Religion is not static because religion (?) (ritual?) is on the spiritual platform. The spiritual platform is not static because the spirit is the dynamic force in this body. So when it is uncontaminated by this material body, then how it can be static? Because the spirit soul is there within the body, therefore my body is moving.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But, for instance, in ancient Greece, they fabricated so many myths, mythology...

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, that I have already answered. Anything manufactured by man, that is not religion. That is not religion. That I have already explained. Religion is not manufactured, but it is given by God. That is our point. God is giving religion, "Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." So any religious system may be different in method, but ultimately, if it comes to this point, surrendering to God, then it is religion. Otherwise, it is not religion. Reject it.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that prompted by this vital impulse, the human will identifies with the divine will in a mystical union...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': ...and that this is real religion.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching people that you agree with the divine will. The divine will is that you surrender. So you agree. You surrender. That we are teaching. That is real religion.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that real religion is a mystic oneness with God.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is... Yes. Oneness means I agree with God. God  says your surrender. I say, "Yes. I surrender." God says Arjuna "You fight," he fights. That is oneness, that we have no disagreement in any point with God. That is oneness. Just like in this institution, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as soon as I say anything, there is no disagreement of any other disciple. If there is disagreement, then it is ended. Disobedient immediately. As it is going, it is being done, taking God's representative, Kṛṣṇa's representative, so similarly with God also. And what, what I am doing? I am simply taking the order from God and I am disseminating the same knowledge. I have accepted that surrender to Kṛṣṇa is my life. I am teaching others, "You also surrender." This is called disciplic succession. There is no disagreement with God. It is not that I am posing myself, "I am God."

'''Śyāmasundara''': What does it mean, "mystic oneness with God"? What does mystic mean?

'''Prabhupāda''': Mystic means spiritual. What is the mystic? What is the meaning of?

'''Śyāmasundara''': "Mystic means known only to those of special comprehension or especially initiated." Known only to those with special comprehension.

'''Prabhupāda''': What is that? Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So Bergson believed that this mystic who had contacted God, that he can lead others and he can teach others how to become godly.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's it. God's representative. That we are. That is disciplic succession. Yes. That is spiritual... He is accepting spiritual master. He is accepting spiritual master. And that is the definition in the śāstra.

:tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta
:jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam
:śābde pare ca niśṇātaṁ
:brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam
:([[SB 11.3.21|SB 11.3.21]])
One who has realized God, you go to such spiritual master to understand the spiritual science. The Bhagavad-gītā also... That is our word, that you should approach... What does he say? That word?

'''Śyāmasundara''': The mystic teaches us how to become godly.

'''Prabhupāda''': How to become godly. That's right.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says how to become God.

'''Prabhupāda''': Who?

'''Śyāmasundara''': This man. In the sense of godly, how to become God.

'''Prabhupāda''': All right. That can be accepted. But a better word is how to become godly or God conscious. That is the exact word. Śyāmasundara: This definition in the dictionary for mystic is "known only to those of special comprehension or especially initiated."

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Yes. That means one who is God conscious. He is mystic.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But the modern interpretation of the word mystic is something different. People take "mystic" to mean someone who is very mysterious and magic.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. It has come to that. God consciousness... Just like at the present moment, if a guru can show some miracles, just like that Sai Baba, (laughter) so they accept that he's mystic. Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. That's the modern meaning of mystic.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Although it may be rascaldom, false, still,  he's received like that. Miracles. That means less intelligent class of men, they want to see some miracles. That is mysticism.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And he says that God means love and the creative... Through creative love the world came into being, and the world is a manifestation of God's love.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. God loves. Because unless He loves, why does He come personally? Why He gives instruction through scriptures? 

(break)
[[File:Samuel Alexander.jpg|250px|thumb|left|alt=Samuel Alexander|link=|<div class="center">'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Alexander Samuel Alexander] (1859 - 1938)'''</div>]]
'''Śyāmasundara''': So today we are discussing a philosopher named Samuel Alexander. He is the philosopher of emergent evolution. The last of the evolutionists we'll be discussing. His philosophy begins with the idea that objects, external objects, have an independent existence. They do not depend on consciousness for their existence. This is the opposite of many philosophers we have discussed who have said that nothing exists unless it is perceived. But this philosopher says something may exist even though it is not perceived. Even though there is no conscious life to observe, it still exists. Objects exist independently of perception.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Just like God exists, either you perceive or not perceive. Is that all right? God, creator. Just like everyone has got father, so all living entities coming originally from a father. So you perceive or not perceive, it doesn't matter. But a father was there or is there. Is that all right?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. Suppose if nobody perceives an object. Say, like...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Even nobody perceives, the fact is fact. Nobody has seen my father, but everyone knows that I had a father. It is not necessary that who accepts that I had a father, or I have a father, it is not necessary that he has to see my father by direct perception. But because I exist, therefore my father is essential. That is understood by everyone. Just like somebody asks, some friend asks some friend, "What is your father's name?" That means he assumes that he has got a father. Otherwise how does he say, ask, "What is your father's name?" First of all, you should have asked, "Have you got a father?" Then ask his name. But without asking this inquiry, whether he has got a father or not, he simply asks, "What is the name of your father?" Then it is assumed that he has a father. So he does not see his father, but immediately perceives that he has a father.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He uses the example of a house, that if I become conscious of a house, the house itself is a real entity, unaffected by my consciousness of it. It exists, objectively, real, whether I see it or not. He says that the...

'''Prabhupāda''': But in that proposition... And if we accept that we are eternal, so it is very natural to assume that we have got eternal home. That is back to Godhead, back to home. Is it not?

'''Śyāmasundara''': If we were born someplace, that is our home, normally...

'''Prabhupāda''': No. The thing is... Just like I have come to this house. This is not my own house, but everyone knows that I have got a house. It may be where it is. Therefore sometimes they ask, "Where, what is your residence?"

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. "Where is your home?" That usually refers to where you were born.

'''Prabhupāda''': Or where I live. That's all. Not necessarily. "What is your address?" That present address may not be my birthplace, but I live somewhere. That's a fact. Nobody is interested to know where I live, but everyone knows that I have got a living place.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Many people ask, "Where do you come from?"

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': "Where is your origin?"

'''Prabhupāda''': "What is your birthplace?"

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. So this Samuel Alexander says that our consciousness of an object is a mere perspective on something, but it's a real portion of that object and not just a mental image. In other words, if I see a table, I am actually reacting with that table. It is a real perspective. It's not just a mental image, but I'm actually reacting to that table. My senses are reacting with the table. It's an objective reality.

'''Prabhupāda''': Where is the table?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. Some philosophers think that if I see the table, it's merely a mental idea in my mind, that table. He says that no, there is a real objective relationship between my senses and the table, reality of the table. Is that...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is right.

'''Śyāmasundara''': That's right?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': It's not just a mental image.

'''Prabhupāda''': No, not mental. If the table is thrown upon me, I will fall. Then we cannot say that it is mental image. And it hurts me and blood oozes out; then it is not mental.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that even illusions are genuinely real objects which are uncreated by the human mind. In other words, if I think I see a snake and it is actually a piece of rope, but if I think it is a snake, then it really is a snake.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is reality of a snake; otherwise how this imagination comes to me? I have got an idea of snake. Now, in darkness there is a rope. So I may falsely take it as snake. That's doesn't matter. But snake is there. That is our argument.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that the mind never creates anything new. It simply rearranges things. Everything already exists...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': ...but the mind, and the mind merely arranges it. It doesn't create anything new.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Just like the economic law says that you cannot create anything. You simply transform. Just like this table is nothing but wood. So wood is not my creation. Wood is there, but I have transformed the wood into a state which is called a table.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So that newness or novelty is merely rearranging. Something new, they say, "Oh, he has created something new." But it is merely a rearrangement of previously existing things.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is that English proverb, "Necessity is the cause of invention." I require something to sit down, leaning back side, so I create a chair which is called armchair. So I sense first of all a necessity that "I must sit down very comfortably leaning towards the back." So under such spirit I make this chair, and this is called armchair. So necessity is the mother of invention.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So all new things are created out of necessity?

'''Prabhupāda''': New things means I create a necessity, and then, according to the plan of the necessity, the thing is there. Just like dictaphone. I feel inconvenience to dictate or the secretary has no time to take my dictation. So I may feel that "If I keep record of my dictation, the secretary will take it later on according to his convenience." So therefore the invention of a dictaphone.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yet many philosophers would say that this is the reason that religion has come about, that man feels a necessity  for God, so he invents God.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Not invents. He knows God. This is natural. Just like if a sane man is there, so who is the original father? Huh? Just like I have got a father. Everyone knows. My father has a father. His father's father's father... Then who is the original father?

'''Śyāmasundara''': So he can invent his original father.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. He can simply know by this philosophical research who is the original father. And the Vedānta-sūtra also says, "God is He who is the original father of everything." Janmādy asya yataḥ ([[SB 1.1.1|SB 1.1.1]]).

'''Śyāmasundara''': In a sense, the man is not really inventing a chair either. There is already an idea of chair previously existing. He's just discovering it, something which already exists. Is that correct?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes, in that sense, that I am feeling the necessity of armchair. My predecessors, they might have felt that chair, they invented. But at the present moment, my predecessor is also gone, the chair is also gone. So invention means the things which I create that was not in existence. That is called invention?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Hm.

'''Prabhupāda''': And discovery: The thing is already there; I simply find it out. So invention and discovery practically convey the same idea.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. Because actually nothing is new. If I...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is discovery.

'''Śyāmasundara''': If I invent something...

'''Prabhupāda''': Similarly, in case of God, it is discovery. It is not invention. It is discovery.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. Just like the idea of a chair is already there in nature. Nature provides a chair.

'''Prabhupāda''': Nature provides a sitting place. Just like when there is a slab of stone anywhere, I wish to sit down on it. Psychology. Then the next proposal is, "Why not invent something at my home? It is here in a... I cannot take it." You can say the idea was there already, to sit down on a high place comfortably. So I come home and make a chair according to that idea.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that the mind is an emergent, that is, it creates a new organization out of existing things. It emerges new things out of old things. This comes from the idea of evolution.

'''Prabhupāda''': Just like there is gold and there is mountain. So I make a golden mountain. Gold is there, mountain is there. I combine together and make an imagination, golden mountain. Is that like that?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. Similar to that.

'''Prabhupāda''': The things are there. We mix up. So many things. The things are there and I mix up with something else and it can be called an invention.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So then he tries to describe what is this mind. The mind is emergent. It can rearrange things and create new things, arrange new things.

'''Prabhupāda''': Mind creates some idea and again rejects it. It creates another idea. That is mind's business. He is not satisfied by creating something as final. Mind is creative. He creates something and he thinks, "Oh, this is not..." Just like you were making some doll (door?). You don't like it. Again you break it. Then again do it nicely, "Oh, it is not right." Then again break it. That is mind's business.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Accepts and rejects.

'''Prabhupāda''': Reject.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that the mind has two functions also, but he describes them slightly different. He says that first one is contemplation, that is perceiving the qualities of an object. And this is a, it's called a neurological activity. In other words, when the nerve endings in the body react with the qualities of an object. If an object is red, my nerve ending perceives that it is red. This is the object.

'''Prabhupāda''': Just like if there is a tamarind, immediately there is saliva in my tongue.

'''Śyāmasundara''': (laughs) This is what he calls contemplation.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And then the second function of the mind is enjoyment, where there is a mental awareness of an inner, physiological activity as a result of the contemplation.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. There are so many examples. Just like one man dreams some woman and there is nocturnal discharges. Mind creates like that and there is physical action actually. Mind creates a dream, a tiger, and there is physical action. He is crying loudly, "Here is a tiger. Here is a tiger." Actually, there is no tiger.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that even these mental images in dreams are real, that they have an objective reality.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Objective reality. When I dream of a woman or a tiger, there is objective reality. In dream it may be. There may be no existence of woman or tiger, but there is real existence of tiger, my dreaming. The impression of a tiger in my mind, the impression of a woman in my mind is created as hallucination, and that reacts on my physical life.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that even these mental objects have a real existence in my consciousness. As long as I'm thinking there's a tiger about to pounce on me...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': ...there is a tiger. There is a real object in my consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda''': And because it is real object, it is reacting on my physical life.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He describes ultimate reality as space-time. Space and time. He says that time is an infinity of instants, single instants, and that the basis of infinity is a point, and that these two are combined and this is called reality.

'''Prabhupāda''': Infinity of?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Point.

'''Prabhupāda''': Points and?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Infinity of instants.

'''Prabhupāda''': Instinct.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Instant. Like a moment is an instant.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Hm.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So he calls this ultimate reality. Time and space.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Time is... We take it reality, time. That we accept also. Time is eternal. Reality. And therefore we take time as another feature of God.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And space?

'''Prabhupāda''': Space is later created.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Oh, after time. Oh. And it creates the ultimate reality?

'''Prabhupāda''': No. No. Space is also reality. Space is prakṛti. Prakṛti, kāla, jīva, and Bhagavān. They are all reality.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Oh. Those four things.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Oh. He leaves out entity and Bhagavān. He only has time and space in the ultimate reality.

'''Prabhupāda''': Our philosophy... We see that one ultimate creator, Bhagavān. And jīvātmā, subsequent creator. God has created wood; I create a table and chair. I am subsequent. I am not ultimate creator. So jīvātmā is subsequent creator. Both the creators are eternal. And because the creation has got time connection, past, present, and future, so time is eternal. Time is eternal and jīva is eternal and prakṛti.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Prakṛti means space?

'''Prabhupāda''': Prakṛti means elements. Space is sky. Space is sky. So sky is one of the fundamental factors of prakṛti, space.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Anything which occupies space.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So there is even spiritual space?

'''Prabhupāda''': Oh yes. Otherwise, how there is spiritual world? The ingredient is different. Otherwise, they're exactly the same. Just like you create plastic tree like this. The plastic tree and this tree, ingredients are the same. The same, that earth, water, air. What is this plastic? It is also a kind of earth. Is it not? You mix with water and put a shape and heat it, it becomes glass and this and that, so many things. Similarly, the whole material creation is also combination and permutation... What is called?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes.

'''Prabhupāda''': Of these five elements. Especially earth, water and fire. Just like this brick What is this brick? Earth, water, mix and put it into fire. It is brick.

'''Śyāmasundara''': (aside:) Should I turn it off? (?)

'''Prabhupāda''': And you crush this brick, it becomes mortar. And mix with lime and water. Then it becomes cementing plaster, and put the bricks after bricks with that cement and it becomes house. So ultimately earth, water, and fire. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayam, exchange of earth, water, and fire.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And he says that nothing remains at rest, that everything is in perpetual transition.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is accepted. That is called jagat. Gacchati. Everything is going on, forward. That is called jagat.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Even the activities of the spiritual world are like that?

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Spiritual world is different. We are speaking of material world. In spiritual world the activity is eternal. In material world activity is not eternal.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But motion, the motion is eternal because everything is moving.

'''Prabhupāda''': Motion is interaction of the three qualities. Just like you put soda and alkali, alkali and acid together, there is a reaction, effervescence. So both of them are material, but in due course of time it reacts, and then creation takes place.

'''Śyāmasundara''': What about activities in the spiritual sky, beyond...?

'''Prabhupāda''': Activities of the spiritual sky, that is eternal. Everything is eternal there.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But... Isn't there motion?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Why not motion? Because there is living entities. Living entities means life force. There must be motion.

'''Śyāmasundara''': This is his idea: all of creation means motion. There is motion everywhere.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Without motion, how there can be creation? This is called kṣobha. Nothing is created without motion.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So he says that he wants to find some categories which define the characteristics of everything, that everything possesses these things in common.

'''Prabhupāda''': That five elements: earth, water, fire, air... Anything you take, these things are there. And subtler things: mind, intelligence, and ego. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that these eight kinds of material elements are differentiated energy of Kṛṣṇa.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His categories are a little more abstract. He says that the primary category is motion.

'''Prabhupāda''': But wherefrom the motion comes? That is insufficient knowledge. When you... Motion means somebody must move, push on. That is accepted by Professor Einstein. If somebody has pushed, the motion has begun. Now it is going on. Just like in the billiard table, push one ball, "Hut!" And it goes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. So he says that there are four major categories besides the primary category of motion and they are 1) identity or diversity. Each thing has a personal identity, an individuality, and each thing is different from every other thing.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is called sajātīya-vijātīya bheda in Sanskrit. Different... Sajātīya. Just like two trees, two mango trees, but still there is difference. They are one as mango tree, but this tree is different from that tree. Similarly, the fingers. As finger they are one, but this finger is different from this finger. Although sajātī. Sajātī means of the same category, but there is difference. Although the same category, finger, but this finger is bigger than this finger. The whole body. It's a part of the body. Hand is different from leg. Leg is different from his head. Head is different from palm. Palm is different from sole. There are so many differences. They are called sajātī vijātī.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the one characteristic that they all have is that they are individuals, that they are individual.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. One characteris... One is substance, another is character, character.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Category.

'''Prabhupāda''': Category, yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the second thing that he sees that characterizes everything, that all things possess in common, is existence, or being.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is five elements. Just like there are differences between tree and your body, my body, but this body is made of the five elements: earth, water, air, fire. The tree is also made of the same elements, earth, water, air, fire... The aquatic body, fish's body, is also made of the same ingredients. Only difference is that one ingredient is prominent, other ingredients... Therefore you can take up this fact that there are living entities in the sun. The sun, because it appears fiery, you cannot exist. Your body cannot exist in the fire. But it does not mean there cannot be somebody whose body itself is fire. How can you deny it? And body being fiery, he can stay in the fiery planet of the same temperature.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the third and fourth categories he sees that relates to everything are relations and order. Everything relates to everything else and there is an order in everything. Everything is part of an order, a grand order.

'''Prabhupāda''': Oh, yes. Prakṛti, there is order. Just like the sun is rising exactly in time. It is setting exactly in time. The sea waves, they are forbidden, "Not to come beyond this limit." Big, big waves are always coming, "Ohn, ohn!" but not beyond  this beach (reach?). So there is order. Everything there is order.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Even the mind occupies space and transpires in time. Mind occupies space and works in time. Is that also a fact?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. We are occupying space. That's a fact.

'''Śyāmasundara''': The mind also occupies space?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Because I am occupying space, mind is within me. Why not? Mind occupying space, it can be practically experienced. The mind runs immediately, thousand miles away.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But is that thousand miles away in me or does my mind actually travel there.

'''Prabhupāda''': Travels.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Oh. So it occupies space.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Unless... Suppose... You don't exactly remember now. The mind is going. As soon as reaches, then you can remember. It takes a second, but still, it occupies...

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the mind leaves this body and goes somewhere.

'''Prabhupāda''': Not leave. It is just like a suit (shoot?).

'''Śyāmasundara''': Oh, it extends.

'''Prabhupāda''': Extends.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that whatever exists is subject to...

'''Prabhupāda''': At night also, the body also extends and again comes... You forget this body; you are dreaming some body, some other feature of the body. So sometimes you take that body very important.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that whatever exists is subject to space and time and to these categories. However, evolution is progressing and new emergents appear in all the qualities which are envisioned to the mystic qualities. That the living entity, or life, he says that it could evolve into new things, other things, other than what we know about because it is continually emerging, evolution is continually emerging to something new.

'''Prabhupāda''': So?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Does this follow with...

'''Prabhupāda''': What is the conclusion?

'''Śyāmasundara''': The conclusion is that everything is evolving into ever newer and newer forms, and in the future that...

'''Prabhupāda''': Old order changes, yielding place to new. This law?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes. But this new form which may appear in the future, we may have no idea about it now. We may not be able to say what it is, what it will be like.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. We don't think like that. We know that the days are going on. As we have experienced past, summer season and winter season, then forward also, we can say in such and such month there will be summer season. In such and such month there will be winter season. Either you take it from book or take it from our past experience, the things are there.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So in the future there may be nothing unpredictable appearing, such as an entire new form of existence or something like this.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Why? In future... Just like seasonal changes. There will be winter season. So what is the wonder there? I have got past experience of winter, so I am saying that "In such and such month there will be winter."

'''Bhavānanda''': Of course, it could come about that there was no winter. A point could be reached, he's saying, that where there would be no winter.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Where winter may disappear.

'''Bhavānanda''': Disappear or, they say the experience on this planet  is that one time summer stopped and that everything became covered with ice. I have no experience with that.

'''Prabhupāda''': Huh?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Just like in the past they say there was an ice age when there was no summer, no heat, and everything became ice, so in the future..., I cannot predict... Evolution may carry the events into some entirely strange new way, novel combination. Like winter may disappear or summer may disappear or...

'''Prabhupāda''': No.

'''Bhavānanda''': Or a new species may come out.

'''Śyāmasundara''': A new type of man.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. No. That is not possible. Everything is there. That is the Vedic version. They say that so many species in the water, so many species on land, so many moving... It is all fixed up. There is no question of increasing or decreasing.

'''Bhavānanda''': But they have predicted a species of man, a type of man in the future who would have no hair on his body and whose head would be very, very big because of an increased brain capacity, but whose body would be atrophied. The arms and legs of the man they predict in the future is going to become more and more secondary.

'''Prabhupāda''': Who predicted? Who is that fool? (laughter)

'''Śyāmasundara''': They say that man will lose some of his toes because he will cease activities, his activity will become...

'''Prabhupāda''': This is another foolishness. It has never become, neither it will be.

'''Bhavānanda''': Man has always had five toes.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's right.

'''Bhavānanda''': And he always will. However, is there, if there is a species of a type of men that have eight toes on each foot, he's always had eight toes on each foot. He might not be on this planet.

'''Prabhupāda''': We don't care any such things.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that man may evolve to a demigod platform in the future.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': That he will have super consciousness, this and that.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devaṇ ([[BG 9.25|BG 9.25]]). If you become fond of the demigods, you go to the demigods. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Or bhūtejyā, you can remain in this material world.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that evolution is passed through five stages. In the beginning there was merely space and time and the categories, this object. Then there was a development of primary qualities through multiple sense perception. In other words, living entities began to perceive objects through different sense perceptions. Then there was the secondary qualities were developed through perception by one organ. In other words, out of a multiple sense quality, an eye developed, a nose developed, a mouth developed.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is the process of body. I have explained several times that after the secretion of the male and the female, they together emulsify and forms a pealike body. And that develops into this body. Gradually, there are holes. The holes become eyes, ears, nose, rectum, like that. So when the body, creation of body is complete, then the child comes out.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that after the secondary sense perceptions are developed, then life develops and then mind develops.

'''Prabhupāda''': Mind is also created. That we admit.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So he says that in this way there are...

'''Prabhupāda''': Mind, ego, intelligence, everything is created of elements.

'''Śyāmasundara''': This, parallel to this is the idea is first there were the ingredients of nature, then there was very simple forms of life, then more developed forms of life, then human life. And he says in the next stage will be deity life or demigod life. And in this sixth level of life, he says that men will be able to more than just enjoy the qualities of mental experience, that they will be able to contemplate things as they are. They will be able to contemplate rather than just enjoy. They will be able to contemplate.

'''Prabhupāda''': Now let us stop. We shall discuss tomorrow. (break)

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yesterday we were discussing this philosophy of emergent evolution. The theory behind it is in the beginning there was merely space and time and categories and then this developed to a level of primary sense perception, then to a level of secondary sense perception, then to a level of organic life, and then to a level of mind, mental life. And now, his theory is that the next level will be called deity, or a sort of demigod level of consciousness, in which men will be able to not only enjoy the objects of contemplation but be able to contemplate them, really, (?) in reality.

'''Prabhupāda''': So that is Vedic process.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that all of evolution is going that way, nature is tending that way. And nature has progressed in different steps from inorganic life to organic life, to mental life, and now to demigod life.

'''Prabhupāda''': From organic... Inorganic life? What is that inorganic life?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Space and time and the categories of...

'''Prabhupāda''': Where is the life there?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Life develops from inorganic matter is his theory. It is merely a higher level of organization, inorganic life.

'''Prabhupāda''': That means life developed from matter?

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is nonsense. How life develops from matter? Where is the, evidence? Why do they not manufacture life from matter in the laboratory? It is simply a statement. It has no value. Because you cannot produce living force from matter. Matter is different and living force, soul, is different. (In) one sense, of course, they are the energy of God, but still, categorically, they are different. So far these materialists are concerned, where is the proof that from matter, life has developed? So why they do not manufacture life in the laboratory? Even an ant you cannot manufacture. You have got all the chemicals. Why don't you manufacture life? So this theory cannot be accepted.

'''Śyāmasundara''': They trace back... Their so-called evidence is just mostly see that geological calculations. They see that at a certain period... They go further down into the earth's surface.

'''Prabhupāda''': That's all right.

'''Śyāmasundara''': All kinds of life disappear and there is simply rock. And they say the beginning was merely rock and water; then organic life came out.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. That is not organic life. The soul appears in different ways. One of the ways is by fermentation, perspiration. So rock and water, when it is decomposed there is fermentation  and there is possibility of soul taking advantage and come out with a body. In any case, from matter life never comes. It is compared with... Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. A vṛścika, a scorpion, is coming out from rice. Actually, a scorpion down lays eggs within the heaps of rice, and by fermentation of the rice, heating, the egg, I mean to say, produces a small scorpion, and it comes out from the rice. So foolish people, they think that the heaps of rice is the cause of producing a scorpion. So many things come like that, but that does not mean the matter is producing life. If matter is producing life, the modern science, so much advanced, so let them prove in the laboratory, mixing some matter, life is coming. That fermentation, that is accepted in the Vedic language. By fermentation living creatures come out.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So it is only because the soul finds refuge there.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': What about this idea that nature...

'''Prabhupāda''': Mister (indistinct).

'''Śyāmasundara''': Yes.

'''Prabhupāda''': Give him one āsana.

'''Śyāmasundara''': That nature is progressing. What about this idea that nature, or evolution, is progressing?

'''Prabhupāda''': The same nonsense idea. Evolution is not progressing. Everything is there, but it is being manifested when the living soul takes shelter.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But do you think that there will become a level of demigods, a race of demigods?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Demigods, according to Vedic system, demigods... (Hindi:) Aiye. Demigods were created before man was created. (Hindi:) Aiye. Jaya. Demigods, just like demigod, Lord Brahmā, he was first created. From Brahmā, Lord Śiva was created. Then... Created means born, not created. So similarly, from Brahmā, other, Dakṣa, he was created, so many, one after..., Prajāpatis, then Manus.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So even before inorganic life there was...

'''Prabhupāda''': There is no such thing, from inorganic life. Inorganic life... Suppose just like Brahmā is coming from the navel of Viṣṇu. So where is the... We don't get any information. Viṣṇu is origin, and from Viṣṇu, Brahmā came. From Brahmā, other demigods came, other animals came. They create animals and others. The first created being is Brahmā, the most intelligent. He's not animal. Their proposal is from lower to the higher, but our theory is from the higher, from Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ ([[BG 10.8|BG 10.8]]). "I am the origin of everything." Now, how you can say there is development from the lower creatures? He is the origin. And Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ ([[SB 1.1.1|SB 1.1.1]]). The origin, Absolute Truth, is that from whom everything is generating. So Absolute Truth means He is the supreme life. From life, life is coming. Where is the evidence that dead stone giving birth to a man or animal? Where is the evidence?

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that in future everyone will be a demigod, that the race of man, because of mental life, will be replaced by a race of superconscious beings.

'''Prabhupāda''': Superconscious beings, there are already existing, just like in Siddhaloka and Gandharvaloka. There are many planets.

'''Śyāmasundara''': This earth planet will become like that.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. We don't get such information. Why they are so much anxious about the earth planet? There are many millions of  planets. So super human being there... Just like we learn from the śāstras, in the Siddhaloka they can fly from one planet to another. Not only that, all the yogic siddhis, they are, naturally they have got. Just like we are trying to fly in the sky, that is not natural, but a small bird, he can fly. It is God's creation. So similarly, there are many human beings in the Siddhaloka. They, without any airplane, without any..., they can fly. They go from one planet to another. Not that this, from this planet they have developed. They are already existing.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that nature develops towards that point. The body develops better and better to that point.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is another..., the same rascal proposal. Body never develops. There are different types of body and the soul take shelter of one particular body. The same example, that in the tailor shop there are many shirts and coats. It is not that a shirt is developing into coat, neither the coat is developed into shirt. But there are many varieties of shirts and coat. If you go, you put on, and when the shirt or coat moves, the rascal thinks that it is the shirt and coat is moving. Shirt and coat never moves. The man, or the living entity, within the shirt and coat, he is moving. And therefore as soon as he is out, the shirt and coat, this body, is dead. It has no value.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So according to the desire of the soul, he...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is the statement in the Bhāgavata. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantor dehopapattaye ([[SB 3.31.1|SB 3.31.1]]). Karmaṇā. Just like you get a shirt and coat according to the price you pay, similarly, by your karma, you get a particular type of body.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So if one was prepared to pay for such demigod existence, he could have it.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Demigod... That is called puṇya-karma. Just like they are going to Candraloka. According to Vedic scripture, yānti deva-vratā devān ([[BG 9.25|BG 9.25]]). If you worship the particular demigods, then you are promoted in that loka.

'''Śyāmasundara''': It's not that accidentally nature will evolve a race of demigods on this planet.

'''Prabhupāda''': No, no. There is nothing accidental. It is not that accidental, one becomes high-court judge. (laughter) This is nonsense. Accidental(ly) one becomes a very high grade medical man. This is all childish proposal. They have no sense even. It is all childish. Where is the, in our practical life, where is the evidence that accidentally one has become like this? Is there any evidence of how they propose these childish things? I do not know. And they are passing as philosophers.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Occasionally, for instance, there will be some great genius born in a family, and they will say that somehow or other, nature has produced this genius. The parents are not so intelligent.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Genius means he, in his previous life, he cultured, and next life is being manifested. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāyate ([[BG 6.41|BG 6.41]]). So yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ, one who could not finish his yogic activities perfectly, he is given chance. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe. Not that accidental.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So through the practice of some kind of yoga system, men develop higher consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. This is also, we are practicing, bhakti-yoga.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Otherwise...

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Without your... This is the thing, you have to gain by your own endeavor. Other things naturally come in. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Therefore śāstra says, "For that perfection, one should devote his life." Here people  are taught to struggle how to get material comforts, but according to Vedic system, material comforts you will have whatever is destined to you. But so far your spiritual development is concerned, you have to understand that you are spirit soul and you can develop yourself to go back to the spiritual world, you can be associated with the Lord. So many things, spiritual activities. So the śāstra says that one should try to achieve spiritual perfection, and for that he should endeavor. Not for material comforts. Material comforts will come to you as material distress come upon you. You don't ask for material distress, but it comes. Similarly, material comforts also will come automatically. So there is no need of wasting time. Just like see in the nature there are so many millions of living entities. They have no business, they have no profession. These birds, early in the morning, they have no fixed (?) (figs?). But they know there is food somewhere. They go to a tree and enough fruits there are you eat. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. They have got their nest upon the tree, and another female bird is there already. So he has sex life and they try to defend themselves in their own way. So these things, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam, these four things, by nature it is already given. You haven't got to try for it. Simply you have to try for spiritual emancipation. That endeavor should be engaged.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that in this higher state of consciousness, rather than just enjoying objects, that one is able to contemplate them as they are, to understand them as they are. One is able to understand objects, things, as they are. Most people are on the level... On the mental level, we are capable of enjoying objects; they give us pleasure, but we are unable to understand them as they are. But in this higher level, he says that people will be able to understand things as they are, as well as enjoy them.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is our philosophy. Just like common man is seeing a rose flower, but a devotee is studying that rose flower, "How God's energy is acting that through His energy such a nice thing has come out. Therefore it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa's property." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam ([[ISO 1|ISO 1]]). "It is Kṛṣṇa's production, it is Kṛṣṇa's property. So it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa." And devotee, after offering it to Kṛṣṇa, then, as prasādam, he smells. This is higher consciousness. In the lower consciousness: "Oh, here is a beautiful flower. Let me take it and enjoy it."

'''Śyāmasundara''': Pure enjoyment without any understanding.

'''Prabhupāda''': This is the difference between lower consciousness and higher consciousness. An animal eating, he is also eating. A man is eating. The man should be developed consciousness that eatable is given by Kṛṣṇa. As it is stated in the Vedas, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. "The Supreme Lord is supplying all the necessities of life." So "Kṛṣṇa has given me these necessities of life, so first of all let me offer it to Kṛṣṇa." That is called yajña. That is called yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ ([[BG 3.9|BG 3.9]]). Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyanti sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña means Viṣṇu. For Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, everything should be done. Otherwise, he will be entanglement. So this is called higher consciousness, fructified consciousness. Just like the flower has got different stages: bud stage, then little grown, then little... Once you'll find it fully grown, nice, beautiful rose, and fragrant. That is, when a human being comes to that full grown consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that the whole world, the process of world evolution is moving toward that point.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Toward that point, nature is giving chance, but because you are living entity, you have got independence, you may not take the chance.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Your idea is more that certain individuals will attain that point, but not the world as a whole.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. World as a whole will... Just like we are... Kṛṣṇa is teaching that "Surrender unto Me," but who is taking Kṛṣṇa's teaching? That is independence. If Kṛṣṇa is assuring that "You just surrender unto Me, and I give you protection from all resultant action of sinful activities,"... People suffer for sinful activities. Just like we are keeping the account nicely so that when we present to the government they may not see any flaw. So we are keeping account nicely. That means we are trying to save ourself from sinful activities. And if there is discrepancies in the account, that is sinful activity. So as soon as there is discrepancy, one has to suffer. So Kṛṣṇa says... But the material world is so made that even if you do not want to act sinfully, unconsciously you will act so many things sinfully. Unconsciously. Even you have no desire. Just like we had done that. Unconsciously we did not take the certificate, and we are suffering. There was no intention to violate this rule, but unconsciously we did not do it. Now we have to suffer. So similarly, unconsciously or consciously, we are acting so many things sinful. Just like when you are walking on the street, you have no desire to kill animals, but on account of your walking, so many ants are being killed. So you are responsible for that. Therefore that vyādha, that hunter, he was jumping. He knows. He has become devotee. So he knows that "Any creature may not die." So he was jumping. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person knows that "I cannot kill even an ant." But unconsciously or consciously, we kill. Suppose we are drinking water. There are so many germs we are killing. And when you rub the spices, there are so many germs are killed. When you ignite fire, so many germs are killed. Therefore Vedic injunction is that pañcasuna-yajña. You must perform yajña daily so that you may be saved from the sinful activities you have committed unconsciously. So that cannot be saved. But Kṛṣṇa says that "Just surrender unto Me and I will give you protection from the resultant action of any kind of sinful activities, consciously or unconsciously." And why the people are not taking advantage of it?

'''Śyāmasundara''': So you don't see that the whole world will evolve to this.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. That is a nonsense proposal. It is a nonsense proposal. Just like sometimes we are questioned by some rascals that "Swamijī, if everyone becomes God conscious, goes to back to home, then who will remain here?" (laughter) Just see the nonsense. He is anxious, who will remain here. He is not anxious for himself. (laughter) It is an argument that "Everyone becomes honest, then who will go to the jail? (laughter) To keep up the jail is very important business. You see? So these are foolish questions. You see?

'''Śyāmasundara''': In his time, 1880, 1890, everyone was very optimistic about the future of man. They thought, through scientific discovery, that everyone would become...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is nonsense because they think, "Whatever we like, by nature's way we shall be promoted." Just like in some meeting in Mombassa somebody asked that, after... Some Aurobindo group, that... No, theosophist. That one man is there; he has no degree. So why not degree?

'''Śyāmasundara''': ...then he goes back.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. If he has got elevation, he has degradation. This is common sense affairs. If you become rich, you can become poor also. Why that once you become rich and there is no question of becoming poor? Is that guaranteed? These nonsense questions are asked even by so-called theosophist and so many there are. You see. They have no common sense even.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His definition of God is that God is the source in nature to support and produce values. What is good, what is true, values, this is God, the source of these values.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. So this is value. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me and all questions solved." So it has value. That we also admit. But it is up to me to accept that value or not. That independence God has given me. Otherwise, everyone would have been Kṛṣṇa conscious and surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Why they are not doing that? Even God is value, to accept that value depends on me.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He said that God is the whole universe and that we are parts and parcels, that man is part and parcel of God.

'''Prabhupāda''': Part and parcel, that is explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Every living entity. Why man? Every living entity is part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ ([[BG 15.7|BG 15.7]]). But they take that "Cow is not living entity. It has no soul. So let us eat. It is eatable." That is their nonsense philosophy. That is not fact. Everyone. Even the... All living entities are part and parcel of God.

'''Śyāmasundara''': These evolutionists, they consider... They don't think there is a soul. They think that the cow is an organism, and we are just more advanced organisms. So we have the right to slaughter the cow because we are more advanced.

'''Prabhupāda''': Now, tiger is more advanced. He has the right to kill you. Why you say you are advanced? Why you ere claiming that you are advanced? When a tiger is there, he kills you and eats you. He is more advanced.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He is more fit to survive.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Why do they not say like that?

'''Śyāmasundara''': But we have developed high powered rifles to kill tigers.

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, that is defense. So the tiger has also defense: claws and nails. So defense will be... When there is fight between man to man, does it mean because man is highly developed and he will not be killed? When there is fight between man to man there is chance of one being killed. So similarly, when there is fight between tiger and you, one being killed, what is your superiority? Simply nonsensical. Simply nonsensical. Therefore our conclusion, "Simply rascal," is perfect. Anyone who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is simply rascal. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that once one has emerged through a process of evolution, once one has emerged to the higher types of evolution or the so-called deity form, he sees that the lower deities or the inferior..., the lower organisms would strive to emulate him, to become like him. Just like the animals would strive to become like men.

'''Prabhupāda''': This is not striving. By nature's way the lower animals, they come to the platform of man. Jīva-jātiṣu paryayaḥ, it is called. Paryayaḥ means one after another. There is nature's help. Up to the human being, that law works. And human being, being developed conscious, so he has got the power of discrimination. Because originally the soul is given  independence. Just like Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru ([[BG 18.63|BG 18.63]]). "Whatever you like, you do." That is the original connection. God is the Supersoul; we are soul, under Him, subordinate. So we are called taṭastha, means marginal. Marginal means we can remain either way. Either on God's side or māyā's side. That is my choice. So when we don't want to serve God, then we are sent to the māyā, to serve māyā. Māyā means his position as servant remains the same, but he thinks "I am master." That is māyā. He is Just like a child trying to do something father does not like. But when he cries, he's given that. "All right. Do this." But "All right, do this" or "Do that," he is under the father. He is under the control of the father. But when he is given such chance, "Oh, I am independent now. I am independent." So this is called māyā. He's never independent, but he thinks, "I am independent." Similarly, here also Just like we Indians, we have got independence. So what kind of independence? In British period there was not so much dependence. These rascal laws, that you have to go So many things. You cannot move now. In British period the Indians had independence to move all over the world by expenditure. Now we cannot go. So we have got independence, but we have become dependent in so many ways. This is called māyā. So whole world, they are thinking that "I am independent. My nation is independent." Nobody is independent. Everyone is dependent under the laws of material nature. When death comes, nobody is independent. Either American, Indian, or There is no question of independence. But when we think that "I am independent," although I am dependent in so many respects, that is māyā. That is māyā. Māyā means what he is thinking, that is not fact. That is called māyā. Mā-yā. What you are thinking, that is not a fact. So daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā ([[BG 7.14|BG 7.14]]). So he is continually serving the māyā, life after life, but still he is thinking, "I am independent." So the right intelligence is, actual independence is, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. When you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is your real independence.

'''Śyāmasundara''': His idea is that all lower forms of life strive to emulate the higher forms of life.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is natural. Everyone wants to become higher than what he is. Because he is trying to become master. He is trying to... His whole problems is that he is trying to be master. So he comes to master to some extent. Suppose he is working in an office, he is a head clerk, master of several clerks. So he is not satisfied. He wants to become a superintendent. When he becomes a superintendent, he wants to be under-secretary. When he is under-secretary, he wants to become secretary. When he becomes a secretary, he wants to become minister. When he is made minister, then he wants to be the president. And when he becomes a president, he wants to control all over the world, just like your Nixon. So this progressive ambition is there in the material world because any materialistic man is implanted with the idea that "I shall become like Kṛṣṇa." So when he fails everything, then he wants to merge into the Kṛṣṇa. Māyāvāda philosophy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He does not know that... He is already Brahman, but he thinks that "I am the Supreme Brahman. I am moving the sun. I am moving the..." Meditating. He is moving the sun. He is moving... Just another imitate. That is the last snare of māyā. Māyā is giving him allurement that "You become a minister, you become secretary, you become a big merchant, you become a Birla. You..." "Become become become." (S)he is always dictating, and he is working under the dictation of māyā. The last dictation is, "Then you have failed all  these things. Better you become God." (laughter) So he thinks, "I am God." And māyā is still kicking. As soon as God gets some toothache, he'll have to, another... So he goes... "After all, what kind of God you are? You come here for toothache cure." This is another man.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And actually it may be true that the lower forms are trying to emulate the higher forms, but it is also the reverse is true. Just like the hippies, they are trying to emulate the hogs.

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, the hippies, they are nonsense. What is the value of their anything? They have no value. They are crazy, mad fellows. That's all. There is no philosophy, nothing of the sort.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He calls... What you said is that māyā is the urge within nature to desire the next step of evolution.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He wants this, he wants that. Is that right?

'''Prabhupāda''': Next step... No. Up to human form of life, by nature one is making progress automatically. One after this, one after this. That evolution. Jalajā nava... Just like from aquatics, you become trees, plants. (aside:) Telephone. Telephone. Somebody go. From trees, you become insect. From insect, you become birds or reptiles. From birds, you become beast. From beast, you become a human being. This is going on by nature's way. Just like a goat. A goat has to live in this body for certain years. Then he becomes something, other animal, and he has to live in that body for some years. Then he becomes another body. This is change . In this way he comes to the human form of life when his consciousness is developed. Now, when... Amongst the human form of life, there are many species of human form of life. So when one comes to..., I may say, in India, when he's born in India, that is the highest perfectional point because there is Vedic knowledge. So he can take advantage of the Vedic knowledge. And by taking advantage of Vedic knowledge, he understands that "I am part and parcel of God. Therefore my real business is to go back to God. Why I am suffering in this material world?" That is perfectional stage.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But the urge to improve oneself, to attain the next stage...

'''Prabhupāda''': This is the urge for improvement. Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that "All living entities are My part and parcels." This instruction can be accepted only by human beings, not the cats and dogs. Although He claims that "Every living entity is My part and parcel," the cats and dogs, they have no capacity to understand these, I mean to say, utterances of the Personality of Godhead. Even he has got an ear. You are hearing, a dog may hear. But you can capture; the dog cannot capture. Due to his lower grade of body, he cannot. So in this higher grade of body, the Vedic instructions are there. Now you can make your choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru ([[BG 18.63|BG 18.63]]). As Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "Whatever you like you can do." So now it depends upon you. If you don't accept the real progressive life, understand Kṛṣṇa and surrender unto Him, then you will go back.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Is it not that because our real nature is perfect that we're always striving to become perfect again? Striving to reach that point again?

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes, your nature is perfect. Perfect means you have got independence also. So you can perfectly misuse also, independence. That is perfect.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But there is always that urge, even among the  lower animals, to improve themselves, be promoted.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is being done by nature. That is evolution. Darwin has taken this idea from the Vedas, but he has no soul idea.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But he mentions the point, what is that urge? Why do I want to improve? What is that urge that makes me want to...

'''Prabhupāda''': It is not his urge. Nature is giving him the impetus. Just like when you are young, there is no sex urge. When you are a small boy, there is no sex urge, but as soon as you come to a certain stage, say, sixteen years, you immediately... The sex urge is there within you, but it was not developed in your childhood. But as soon as you go, come to the youth-hood, there is. Similarly, the perfection of consciousness is there, but unless you come to the stage of human being, that is not developed.

'''Śyāmasundara''': In the animals it may take the form of trying to survive. That's all. The animals want to survive. They want to live.

'''Prabhupāda''': Their only business is how to eat, how to sleep. Where to get eating, eatable things. That is their business. They have no other business.

'''Śyāmasundara''': It is said that the low form of striving to improve...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is struggle for existence you can say. They are simply trying to live. They have no other ambition. That's all. But if a man..., if the living soul, after having come to the stage of human being, if he also simply tries for these four things, eating, sleeping, mating and defending, then he is no better than animal. So nowadays in the modern civilization, simply these things are taught: how you can live comfortably with a car, with a bungalow...

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the urge, the urge to improve or to advance...

'''Prabhupāda''': (aside, Hindi:) Aiye aiye. Give them something, sitting place. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

'''Śyāmasundara''': The urge to advance is there in the human more developed. How does that...?

'''Prabhupāda''': You can give this side. This side. Yes. Why not this fan is running? What is that? All right. Let them sit.

'''Śyāmasundara''': In the human beings, we can see that everyone has the urge to become something better or something more.

'''Prabhupāda''': Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. They can understand English. Ah, yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': We notice that in all human entities there is an urge to advance or improve oneself, to become something more.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Yes. That I have already explained. Because all living entities have come into this material world, their propensity is to enjoy. Enjoy. So he is enjoying one standard of life in one stage of life. But he wants more, better standard. Better standard. The spirit is enjoyment. That is the disease of material science.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the urge has become perverted. The urge to advance has become perverted to the urge to enjoy.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes, perverted, perverted. His position is to serve, but... He is serving his senses, but he's thinking that "I am enjoying." This is called māyā. Actually, he is serving his senses. Just see, to enjoy, to make money, how much they are working hard, day and night. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham ([[SB 7.9.45|SB 7.9.45]]). They are working so hard, but because there is hope that "I shall become millionaire," he is thinking happy. Actually, he is working very  hard. More than an animal. More than an animal. Animals, they work hard, but as soon as they get some food they are satisfied. But human being is not satis He will eat only that four capatis, but he is not satisfied. That is the nature's. The Bhāgavata says that human being is so passionate that he works hard, very hard, and he thinks that "I am happy." He thinks, "I am happy."

'''Śyāmasundara''': This urge to become something more is bad.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is māyā. That is māyā. He cannot be happy in any position. He cannot be happy. But he thinks that "I'll be happy. If I go to that place, or that position." Just like the modern scientists, they have finished their all happiness here. Now they are, they are trying, "If we go to Candraloka, then we shall be happy."

'''Śyāmasundara''': But isn't this urge to advance... He says this urge to advance is the desire to become godly.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Everyone wants to become godly...

'''Prabhupāda''': No, no. The desire, desire means that he has lost his real happiness. His real happiness is with God, dancing with God. Just like gopīs, they are dancing with God. That is real happiness. That is his nature. Ānandamayaḥ abhyāsāt. Vedānta-sūtra says that "By nature he wants ānanda, ānanda." But because he is seeking ānanda in a perverted way, he is being confused and frustrated. Therefore he is thinking "Not this stage, that stage will give me happiness." So when he goes to that stage, he again finds unhappiness. Because he is wrongly selecting, that "This is the stage of my happiness."

'''Śyāmasundara''': And then eventually he'll reach the point where he realizes, "All that is unhappiness," and then he will turn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, the most confidential part of knowledge, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ([[BG 18.66|BG 18.66]]). This will give you happiness because constitutionally you are made like that. Therefore in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka there is happiness, eternal happiness because they are all surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Just like in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana, ell the gopīs, all the cowherd boys, all the cows, all the trees, everyone - simply center is Kṛṣṇa. How Kṛṣṇa will be happy.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So everyone is striving to return to that stage...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': ...and they have simply perverted their drive...

'''Prabhupāda''': Therefore they are confused and frustrated. This is called māyā.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Their advancement is misplaced.

'''Prabhupāda''': Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, māyār bośe yāccho bese kācho hābuḍubu bhāi. Just like one man is being carried away by the waves and he is sometimes dipping, sometimes coming out, sometimes dipping, sometimes So our position is like that, that we are being carried away by the waves of this material nature and we are sometimes being drowned, sometimes coming out. When we come out, we breathe little. We think, "We are now happy." He forgets that "Again I shall have to be drowned." So in this way we struggle. This is called struggle for existence. And "fittest" means when we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, then our fitness is spiritual. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But still, there is that urge to become godly, to be godlike.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. He is godly. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is the realization, "I am Brahman." But he is thinking "I am matter. I am this body." That is the cause of his unhappiness.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So this urge is what's propels all of evolution. Everyone is striving to advance back to that stage of Godhead.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes, nature, in lower life, lower animal life, nature is giving him, "Yes, you come to this, come to this, come to this, come to this." Like that.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that the next stage of evolution, the qualities of the next stage we cannot know at this point.

'''Prabhupāda''': No. He cannot... He does not know, but we know. (chuckles) He has no... He is unfortunate. He has no connection with Kṛṣṇa; therefore he does not know. But one who has got Kṛṣṇa as his master, as his teacher, he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is the Vedic injunction. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. That's all.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that man, being a part of God, that he is capable of cooperating with God to make further progress in the universe.

'''Prabhupāda''': That is... Yes. That is his life, to cooperate with God. That is his real life. But here in this material world he is simply noncooperating. He's simply noncooperating. Unless he is noncooperating, why Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender unto Me." That is simply noncoop... Anything here, karma, jñāna, yoga, anything... Other animal life, you throw away. Even in the higher level of human life, where karma is regulated, jñāna is there, knowledge is there, and yoga is there, but because there is no surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they will not help you to become happy. So that... Caitanya-caritāmṛta says bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakale aśānta. Aśānta means restless. Restless. Bhukti means karmīs. They want simply sense enjoyment. They are called karmīs. And mukti, the jñānīs, they want mukta, mukti. So they also want something. The karmīs, they want everything for sense gratification. When they fail sense gratification, then one wants mukti. That is also another demand. Another demand. Ordinarily, they are demanding, "Give me nice building. Give me nice motor car, nice wife, nice money, bank balance, give me this, give me this, give me this." Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpapati bhājaṁ dehi yaśo dehi. Dehi dehi dehi. This is karmī. And when he is frustrated, after asking many, many times, even becoming Birla, he is not satisfied, then next he wants, "I want mukti." That is also another demand, subtle demand. And the yogis, they also demanding, "Give me this mystic power. I shall become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. I can fly. I can walk over the water." These are yoga-siddhis, eight kind of yoga-siddhis. So they are also demanding. Only kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma ataeva śānta ([[CC Madhya 19.149|CC Madhya 19.149]]). Kṛṣṇa bhakta has no demand. "Sir, I am your eternal servitor. I surrender unto You. Now you do whatever you like with me." So therefore he has no demand. So only Kṛṣṇa bhakta can be peaceful. No other else. Either karmīs, jñānīs, or yogis, nobody is peaceful. Kṛṣṇa also says that

:bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
:sarva-loka-maheśvaram
:suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
:jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
:([[BG 5.29|BG 5.29]])
This is śānti. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, that He is the  supreme enjoyer, bhokta, He is the supreme proprietor, and He is the supreme friend, then he becomes śānta. That is peacefulness.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that man should cooperate with God to usher in the next stage of higher consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And in this respect man is responsible for evolution. Man...

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, when we speak of... When he is prepared to cooperate with God, that is the highest evolution. That is the highest... Nobody wants to cooperate with God. Everyone wants to noncooperate with God.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says it's within man's hands, that man is responsible for the next stage of evolution.

'''Prabhupāda''': What is that next stage of evolution? If he surrenders, that is the highest evolution, highest platform. Then simply enjoyment. There is no more evolution. Evolution, ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada-pañcarātra). If you have come to the point to worship the Supreme Lord, ārādhito yadi haris, then there is no more question of evolution. Tapasā tataḥ kim. Tapasā, tapasya, austerity, penance, they are required for elevation. So ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim. When you are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, there is no more question of evolution. That is the highest evolution. And Bhagavad-gītā also says,

:māṁ ca 'vyabhicāriṇi
:bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
:sa guṇān samatītyaitān
:brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
:([[BG 14.26|BG 14.26]])
He is already Brahman. Anyone who is engaged in the service of the Lord, avyabhicāriṇi, without any adulteration, pure devotion, then he is already Brahman. He hasn't got to seek for again becoming Brahman. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāriṇi bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān sama... He immediately transcends all the three guṇas, the sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. And brahma-bhūyāya kalpate, he is Brahman. Without becoming Brahman, how he can serve the Supreme Brahman?

'''Śyāmasundara''': So the next stage of evolution, if it is to be higher stage than the present man...

'''Prabhupāda''': Higher stage, that evolution they do not know. Just like in Vaiṣṇava philosophy, śānta dāsya sākhya vātsalya mādhurya. The first, when you have come brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, that is called śānta. "Oh, God is..." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ ([[BG 7.19|BG 7.19]]). When one understands. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante ([[BG 7.19|BG 7.19]]), after many, many births, when one comes to this conclusion that "Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa is everything," sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ, that is śānta stage, mahātmā, great soul. Then, from śānta stage, the development is dāsya stage, to serve Kṛṣṇa. Not simply appreciating Vāsudeva. "Vāsudeva is great, God is so great." Not so much, simply appreciation. "Oh, God is so great? Then I must give some service to God." That is next stage. Dāsya-rasa. Then next stage is vātsalya-rasa..., sākhya-rasa, to give service to God just like Arjuna. Arjuna gave service to Kṛṣṇa but as a friend. That is called sākhya-rasa. Then vatsalya-rasa, to give service to Kṛṣṇa just like mother Yaśodā. She has become mother. Mother gives always service to the baby, his (her) child, and Kṛṣṇa is passing His childhood pastimes before mother Yaśodā. Mother  Yaśodā is always thinking, "Kṛṣṇa is hungry. Oh, Kṛṣṇa is getting skinny. I must feed Him. I must protect Him from the monkeys. I must protect Him from fire." Always anxious how to give protection to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving protection everyone, but the devotee has become so great that Kṛṣṇa is taking his protection, her protection. Then, after vātsalya, then mādhurya-rasa, the gopīs or girlfriends. And of all of them, Rādhārāṇī is the highest. She is trying to make happy Kṛṣṇa in so many ways, sixty-four arts: how to dance, how to cook, how to make peace, how to smile, and Kṛṣṇa is captivated by Rādhārāṇī. Therefore the devotee says Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana, He can captivate Madana. But Rādhārāṇī is Madana-Mohana-Mohinī. She captivates even Madana-Mohana. That is the highest stage of mahā-bhāva, Rādhārāṇī's stage. So in the spiritual life there are so many developments. Although there is no difference. It is not that those who are serving Kṛṣṇa as friends just like cowherds boy, and as Rādhārāṇī is serving Kṛṣṇa as consort, there is no difference in value, but spiritually there is estimation of value. Rādhārāṇī's stage is the highest stage.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So if this platform of consciousness is to be attained by everyone, it is the responsibility of men to cooperate with God...

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That cooperation begins when God says that "You surrender unto Me," and if he agrees, that cooperation begins.

'''Śyāmasundara''': In other words, it won't happen automatically.

'''Prabhupāda''': Unless you surrender, where is the cooperation? Where is the cooperation? Just like all my disciples, because they have surrendered, so there is cooperation. Therefore this movement is increasing. Otherwise, alone what can we do? Because you are cooperating with me, therefore I am advancing this movement. If you noncooperate with me, I am old man. What can I do? So similarly, Lord Caitanya comes, Kṛṣṇa, to invite cooperation. He says that "Please cooperate with me. Let me spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that there is freedom of the will in two different senses. One, activity that is surely not subject to compulsion by extraneous forces, and... Activity that is merely not subject to compulsion by extraneous forces, and expression of integrated, self-directing persons acting in a purposeful, coherent way in order to serve the best interest of all. In other words there is the freedom of the will, which is merely not subject to extraneous forces, and there is also the self-directing free will, who is aware of ethical values, and he is...

'''Prabhupāda''': That two cooperation, two kinds of cooperation is going on. Just like in a state a citizen is cooperating as a free citizen. The same citizen is cooperating in the prison by force. The jail superintendent says, "Now you break these bricks." He has to do; otherwise he'll be punished. He is cooperating by force. But this cooperation is inferior cooperation. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa ([[CC Madhya 20.108-109]]). By constitutional position, a living entity is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. In the Vaikuṇṭha jagat, the cooperation, the service is voluntary. And here in this material world the service is forced because it is māyā. Just like in the jail the service is there. One who declares that "I don't care for the government. I break all the laws." But he is put into jail. There is no question of breaking the laws, but by law he has to work forcibly. He  has to do it. So here in this material world we are working under force of māyā. That is called daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā ([[BG 7.14|BG 7.14]]). That force you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid. Only you can avoid when you voluntarily cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He's using the sense of free will in two senses. Just like I would drive down the right side of the road because I know that it's the law. So I want to obey the law. And then the other sense would be I want to drive down the right side of the street in order not to harm anyone and for so many other reasons, a higher type of use of free will. One is automatic, one is more thoughtful.

'''Prabhupāda''': So automatic cooperation is bhakti, and forced cooperation is karma. That is the... It looks the same thing. Karmīs and the bhaktas are working... Just like we are working in the same way. Karmī is typing and a bhakta is typing. It looks the same thing, but karmī is typing under force. His master has ordered, "You work it; otherwise you won't get salary." And a bhakta is typing for pleasing Kṛṣṇa and for glorifying Kṛṣṇa. So the typing looks the same, but the bhakta's typing and a karmī's typing different.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And he says that freedom of the will is relative, that in our higher level it becomes clear that the lower stage was actually determined, predetermined or directed by external forces.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is called karma-phala. That we have explained. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa ([[SB 3.31.1|SB 3.31.1]]). Unless superior superintendence he is working, and as a result of his work, he is getting a particular type of body for enjoyment or suffering.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Even though he thinks he's free. He thinks he's free.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

:prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
:guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
:ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
:kartāham iti manyate
:([[BG 3.27|BG 3.27]])
He is being forced by the laws of nature, but he is thinking, "I am doing this." That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He's a rascal.

'''Śyāmasundara''': This man, Alexander, says that in the higher levels of evolution one can see that everything is determined in the lower levels.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Therefore... Everything is determined; therefore we should not try for improving our economic condition because already it is decided. This sort of... Otherwise why you see so many varieties of standard of life? One is born rich and one born, he is working so hard, he cannot get even two morsel of bread. So everything is determined. Therefore Bhāgavata says that "For this material happiness, you don't try. That will come automatically as distress comes automatically." You don't try for distress, but it comes upon you. Similarly, whatever happiness is due to you, it will also come to you. You try for developing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is your business. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ. That is intelligence.

'''Śyāmasundara''': He says that values are relative between a particular man and a particular object that one man's food is another man's poison.

'''Prabhupāda''': Yes. Just like we have taken, Kṛṣṇa consciousness  has value and material consciousness no value. So value also different according to the different persons.

'''Śyāmasundara''': And he says the basis for determining or judging which values are best is by the principle of coherence, that is, by agreement among the most people willing to accept it.

'''Prabhupāda''': That means authority. What is value. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "You become Kṛṣṇa bhakta," because He is authority. The Veda says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ([[BG 15.15|BG 15.15]]). Veda says that "Search out Kṛṣṇa." So the authority, what the authority says, that is valuable.

'''Śyāmasundara''': But he says not the authority. He says by the most willing people...

'''Prabhupāda''': That we see... He's going... He's going... Veda is accept by everyone. All learned scholar. Who can decry Vedas? Only the rascals will decry Vedas. Otherwise... Just like in our country, India, all the big ācāryas, they accept Vedas as the basic principle. So who can decry? Veda says that the stool of cow is pure, and it is accepted. Everyone. All Hindus, brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, and the ācāryas, they accept that cow dung is pure. Why? Veda says. In another place, Veda says that "Stool of any animal is impure," but this stool is pure. So we haven't got discrimination. We accept that. Other animal stool is impure. But the cow dung, the stool of cow, we immediately accept as pure, and we apply it in our Deity room and make is purified. That is Veda. You cannot contradict . You cannot argue Vedas. That is also...

'''Śyāmasundara''': But his idea is that the majority will accept something.

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, in India majority accepts Veda. Now they have become rascals, that is a different thing.

'''Śyāmasundara''': Now they accept wine...

'''Prabhupāda''': That is a different thing. But in India all the authorities, all personalities, unless you accept Vedas, you are called nāstika. Therefore Buddha philosophy was driven away, Caitanya Mahāprabhu veda nā māniyā bauddha haila nāstika. Simply Lord Buddha says, "I don't care for your Vedas." Lord Buddha wanted to preach nonviolence, but in the Vedic literature there is violence. There is violence. Just like Gandhi wanted to prove from Bhagavad-gītā nonviolence. Where is nonviolence there? Where is that nonviolence? Kṛṣṇa is inducing Arjuna to fight, to become violent. So how can you prove there is nonviolence? These are all nonsense. So similarly, in the Vedas there is recommendation that animals can be sacrificed in the Vedas with mantra. That... Therefore the process, to test the power of the mantra, that animal is put into the fire and the animal again comes out with a new life. That is the test. Just like you test how the microphone is working. So how the Vedic mantras are being chanted rightly, that is tested by putting... Just like in laboratory a small animal is killed. But that is killed. They cannot give life. But here, in sacrifice, aśvamedha-yajña, gomedha-yajña, there is... Gavalambham, aśvamedhaṁ gavālambham ([[CC Adi 17.164|CC Adi 17.164]]). The animal sacrificed, but it comes again with ill life. That is the test, how the Vedic mantra is chanted. So because there is no such qualified brāhmaṇa, therefore in this age all kinds of sacrifices stopped. So Veda is no authority. The mantra has no life. So that is accepted by everyone. At least, civilized class of men. Actually, unless there is this varṇāśrama-dharma, the classification of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, that is not civilized form of life. So according to Vedic conception, the modern civilization, European, American, that not civilized form of... And actually it is  happening. The result is producing. And because India accepted the Vedic culture, in spite of two thousand years onslaught by foreigners, they are standing still. Many of them fallen, but the basic principle is still standing. Just like we are teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness on the basis of Vedic principle. I have not manufactured anything. And it is becoming successful. So the Vedas is so nice. Even foreigners are accepting the principle.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So if the majority of the whole world accepted Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he would call that of value.

'''Prabhupāda''': No, the majority may not accept. You see, if you want to sell jewels, a diamond, you cannot get many customers. That is not possible. But still, diamond is diamond. It may not have many customers. It doesn't matter. If there is one customer, that is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca taraḥ sahasrasaḥ. If there is one moon in the sky that is sufficient to dissipate all darkness. There is no need of thousands or millions of stars. So our movement, if anyone, through all men in the world, can understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will do tremendous good to the people. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that.

'''Śyāmasundara''': So he searched around for those values that are most accepted by the most people and he found they are truth, beauty, and goodness are the three main values. Truth, beauty, and goodness.

'''Prabhupāda''': Well, it is a false proposition. In the material world nobody likes truth. They always want to place untruth, at least in this age. The majority of people are not truthful. As soon as one becomes truthful, he's a brāhmaṇa. (end)