740622 - Conversation - Germany

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740622R1-GERMANY - June 22, 1974 - 64:52 Minutes



(Conversation with Pater Emmanuel - A Benedictine Monk)


Prabhupāda: ...see you.

Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: (Chuckles)

Pater Emmanuel: I am so too.

Prabhupāda: Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness.

Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. It is translated in German too.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. This is just... I received a sample.

Devotee: (translates into German)

Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, yes. (looks at book) Who is author? Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa?

Prabhupāda: He is my disciple.

Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes. From India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is in Cali... His description is there in the last page, his photograph.

Pater Emmanuel: Oh, yes, yes. I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur.

Prabhupāda: He is M.S. from Buffalo University, and he is Ph.D., chemistry, from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, yes. I see.

Prabhupāda: You are coming from...?

Pater Emmanuel: Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I come yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. You can stay here. We have got place.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow.

Devotee: He has a room upstairs.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery.

Prabhupāda: You are Roman Catholic?

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman rite, the Roman Catholic, and also the customs of life... It's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary.

Prabhupāda: Like us.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me."

Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language?

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo?

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ.

Prabhupāda: Christo means Christ.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ, Kriza(?), Kristos, who is Christ by oil.

Devotee: Anointed.

Pater Emmanuel: Ya, Anointed. Christos, Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form.

Prabhupāda: Saint?

Pater Emmanuel: It's the same word.

Devotee: The same word, Prabhupāda.

Pater Emmanuel: Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, "anointed."

Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa.

Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting.

Prabhupāda: Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor—the Sanskrit meaning, attractor.

Pater Emmanuel: Attractor.

Prabhupāda: One who draws, draws everyone near. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. And that all-attractive drawer is God.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think so too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it?

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think that Christ (German).

German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God... The name of God is... What is it?

Pater Emmanuel: Christ.

German devotee: Christ.

Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ says to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why?

Pater Emmanuel: We have name of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that?

Pater Emmanuel: We talk God, "Father" or "our Father."

Prabhupāda: No, "Father..." Just like your son may call you "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. Such-and-such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, "God" is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the son of Christ, or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is... Either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. (pause)

Pater Emmanuel: Yes. When we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name... (German)

German devotee: He says when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos, in the...

Prabhupāda: This Christos means Kṛṣṇa.

Pater Emmanuel: Because a name of God... We know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God, because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality: God Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed, is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ.

Prabhupāda: So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the name is there. And we are recommending, according to Vedic scripture, that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," or "God," along with His energy. He has got two energies—spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy."

This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti, or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation—I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God—that is pure religion.

Pater Emmanuel: What is that?

Prabhupāda: That is pure religion.

Pater Emmanuel: Pure religion. Yes, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure religion means bhakti.

Pater Emmanuel: Mukti, yes.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti.

Pater Emmanuel: Bhakti, yes. And mukti too.

Prabhupāda: So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti, there is no mukti. Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti, he has already attained mukti.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā.

(aside:) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa.

German devotee: Māṁ ca?

Prabhupāda: Māṁ ca. I think he has..

Devotee: 14.26.

German devotee:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
(BG 14.26)

Translation in English?

Prabhupāda: Let him... German translation will help you?

Pater Emmanuel: Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but... (German)

German devotee: 14.26.

Prabhupāda: You read the purport. (devotee reads in German)

Prabhupāda: He wants chair? Give him. (devotees find chair) Yes, go on.

German devotee: (continues with German)

Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Again?

Devotee: Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Brahman. Yes, He is Para-brahman. Para-brahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman...

Pater Emmanuel: Internalized Brahman. Yes, I see

Prabhupāda: ...and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman, because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti, the impersonal Brahman; paramātmeti, the localized Paramātmā; and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences: the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead.

Pater Emmanuel: That's very good.

Prabhupāda: And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he become associate of God.

Pater Emmanuel: (German)

German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way.

Prabhupāda: No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, but we are limited.

Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names—not one or two, but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise, He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute.

Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotee) Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God's love?

Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not?

Pater Emmanuel: I agree.

Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. (devotees arranging chair for a guest in the background) If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real love.

Pater Emmanuel: Will that mean that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source?

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can sit on the chair if you like.

Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position.

Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient? Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not?

Pater Emmanuel: Um...

Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed.

Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing.

Pater Emmanuel: And you think it's a principal point, the top point.

Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come.

Pater Emmanuel: I understand.

Prabhupāda: This is called ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Adi 5.176). If you... I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken—the chicken or what is called, cock, that?

Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens.

Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen?

Haṁsadūta: Hen.

Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that "This mouthpiece is expensive, because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole—this side and that side—then business will go on.

Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotees) In the Christian tradition... (German)

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Water. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God?

Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says..., the Christianity understands...

Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, "killing" and "murder." Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word "murder" instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly, openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us.

Pater Emmanuel: (German)

German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking...

Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill," the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation.

Pater Emmanuel: (German) No, I understand.

Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear: "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret?

Pater Emmanuel: (German)

German devotee: (translating) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Plants?

Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same?

Pater Emmanuel: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also not the same.

Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable, because our Kṛṣṇa says... (aside:) Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26).

German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty-upahṛtam.

German devotee: (reads translation in German)

Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants, "Give Me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa-viddham: sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine. But you cannot drink urine. So the injunction is, tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful... Just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight, the commander-in-chief says, "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam." So we are not sinful.

Pater Emmanuel: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals?

Prabhupāda: Heh?

Pater Emmanuel: Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom, in the nature's way... Just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (break) (indistinct) The perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam. (aside:) Find out.

(break) ...killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all.

Pater Emmanuel: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting "Christ" or "Kṛṣṇa," the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant "Christ" or "Christo." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 2). He says that God has got many, multi names. Any one of them you chant, because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference.

And if we become designatedless—if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name—then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu," "Here is Muslim," "Here is Christian," "Here is white," "Here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization, or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business.

Pater Emmanuel: I agree.

Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads, just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue; we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish; no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no illicit sex; and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo," or "Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?

Pater Emmanuel: No.

Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up...

Pater Emmanuel: On my part, but I...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty-four hours. (priest laughs) Actually, this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen, hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousand churches, but they are not going on. So this experience... In Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian priest in Boston, he issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was, "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?"

Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?"

Pater Emmanuel: What was your answer to this?

Prabhupāda: Answer? What the answer?

Umāpati: Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The answer I gave, you do not remember?

Umāpati: "Because they are intelligent."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I understand.

Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes?

German guest: (German)

German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence, but it is a question of humility.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement?

Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth."

Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road if they see me, they immediately fall down flat, never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said,

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
prakāśante mahātmanaḥ
(ŚU 6.23)

Yasya... "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed."

Pater Emmanuel: (German)

German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others.

Pater Emmanuel: Exercise upon others.

Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect.

Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others.

Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart.

Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice.

Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this...

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (priest leaves) (break)

German guest: (German)

German devotee: (translating) "Where is it written in Bhagavad-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside:) Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha.

German guest: I will read at home. You can tell me the... (German)

Devotee: What is the spelling?

Prabhupāda: Dharma, d-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (BG 7.11)

German devotee: Yes, Seventh Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end)