740605 - Conversation B - Geneva

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740605R2-GENEVA - June 05, 1974 - 100:52 Minutes



(Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research)


Robert Gouiran: ...one month. I should be very glad to know where I should go for my second trip. If you could inform me.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you come to Vṛndāvana. We have got nice place there, and we shall accommodate you. The real spiritual life you'll find in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. We have got places... In Navadvīpa also we have got very big building, and Vṛndāvana. These are recognized.

Robert Gouiran: But where is it?

Prabhupāda: Actually... First of all, thing is that what is your point of view for visiting these Aurobindos and Maharshi Raman and... What others?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Pondicherry.

Prabhupāda: Pondicherry. That is Aurobindo.

Robert Gouiran: And Tirumalaya.

Prabhupāda: Tiru... One...?

Robert Gouiran: Tirumalaya.

Prabhupāda: You have been there?

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Tirumalaya.

Robert Gouiran: Arunachalam.

Prabhupāda: Arunachalam, yes. So you visited the temple?

Robert Gouiran: Yes, of course.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.

Robert Gouiran: I saw it. And the red...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: ...the red, sacred mountain.

Prabhupāda: White?

Guru-gaurāṅga: The red sacred...

Robert Gouiran: The red sacred mountain. Arunachalam.

Prabhupāda: Arunachalam. Oh, yes. The temple is on the mountain.

Robert Gouiran: No, just at the foot of the mountain, on the east, exactly on the east. And the Maharshi Ashram is on the south.

Prabhupāda: So you stayed there for some time?

Robert Gouiran: Well, between Pondicherry and there for one month, four weeks.

Prabhupāda: So who is the...

Robert Gouiran: Then I have to go back to so many places.

Prabhupāda: So what was your achievement by visiting these places?

Robert Gouiran: Uh, it's a little difficult to explain, but I made a series of personal experiences which convinced me of the existence of the occult plane. So I could get some contacts with what I call the occult plane, or whatever you call it. That means the way how we could get the transparency and then to go where we have to go.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice, beginning of spiritual understanding.

Robert Gouiran: So I learned there to let things go and to go with the...

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that you went there for some spiritual enlightenment. Is it not?

Robert Gouiran: Spiritual achievement?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-gaurāṅga: Enlightenment.

Robert Gouiran: Enlightenment. Of course. And I got the first...

Yogeśvara: Taste.

Robert Gouiran: The first small light of this enlightenment.

Prabhupāda: That I am asking you. What is that light?

Robert Gouiran: It's not complete yet. It's not complete yet.

Prabhupāda: No. Whatever you have received, that I want to know. Then I can understand where you stand on the spiritual platform.

Robert Gouiran: Where...?

Yogeśvara: If you can explain that little bit that you have understood...

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Not now.

Yogeśvara: ...then he will know better what your position is on the spiritual platform.

Robert Gouiran: Yes. I should like to do so. Uh, I think, I understood that we could... It is difficult to explain in English.

Prabhupāda: You can speak in French. He'll translate.

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Guru-gaurāṅga: He has learnt how to be taken into things without being taken by things. That is to say that he has just let himself go, and from that letting himself go, he's been able to see things transparently. He's been able to see through things.

Prabhupāda: So what does he see?

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Guru-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I've seen that there is the need..., I have felt that there is the need to become in harmony with things which will take me where I need to go."

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Guru-gaurāṅga: "And to try and work to find out the true path."

Robert Gouiran: I try to work this intuition, to make it stronger, in order to feel where I have to go and to participate...

Prabhupāda: So where is the difficulty...? What is the difficulty in the position you are now, at present?

Robert Gouiran: Good question. The difficulty is that I lost the thought of this transparency by a lot of criss-crossed swords, which make a sort of block, and I have very, very strong difficulties now here to feel intuitively the occult plane. And I am back in the reality...

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Coming back now into the West, he feels so much difficulty to still be sensitive, to have this intuition for the spiritual plane.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He says that there are like criss-crosses, like swords blocking...

Prabhupāda: So one thing is that he's feeling difficulty in the material atmosphere of the West. Is it the fact?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Robert Gouiran: And the...

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Guru-gaurāṅga: (translating) "Too much thinking. I do too much thinking."

Prabhupāda: Anxiety.

Robert Gouiran: Too much information.

Prabhupāda: Not thinking, but anxiety.

Yogeśvara: (French)

Robert Gouiran: Exact. Yes. It's hard, because if there is no anxiety these sword does not stay in the mind. They just pass.

Prabhupāda: This anxiety there must be when we are in a different atmosphere. Just like we heard there was a plane crash. So we are traveling by plane. So as soon as we get on the plane, that anxiety is there. So the anxiety is caused on my boarding aeroplane. Anxiety is caused on account of my boarding aeroplane. So if I do not board a plane, then that anxiety is nowhere. So anyone who is existing in this material world, there must be anxieties. There must be anxieties. Exactly the same example, that as soon as I... It may be very nice plane; it doesn't matter. But I know that it is unsafe. At any moment it can crash. Therefore there is anxieties. So similarly, we are, so long we are in the material platform, we cannot avoid anxieties.

Robert Gouiran: Yes. It's a little... Because what I felt is this, when we could...

Prabhupāda: First of all we should understand this, that we are in..., on a platform. That is called material platform. So, so long you'll remain on the material platform—material platform means the bodily concept of life—the anxiety will never be stopped. First of all let us understand why there is anxiety. The example is given: because I am a being of the land, artificially, when I go up on a plane, on the sky, this is the cause of my anxiety. So I am a spirit being, I am a spirit soul. So long I'll live in material conception of life, we cannot avoid anxiety. This is not possible. This is the problem.

Robert Gouiran: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: I am a spirit soul. So my natural abode for living is spiritual world. So so long I am in the material world, it may be... The same example: I may be on the 747 or DC-10 or 10C-10 or this or that nonsense, I must be in anxiety. So that is the problem. And what is that material problem? Material life means you have got this material body and you do not wish to die. The anxiety on the plane is: "Because I may die." That means you do not wish to die. Why my anxiety? If there is plane crash, then I may die. And therefore my anxiety. If I am assured that I'll not die, then where is that anxiety? The anxiety is that I do not wish to die, but death is there. So that death is there either on the plane or on the ground. You cannot avoid death. Why I cannot avoid death? Because I have got this body, which is perishable. Therefore if I want to be anxiety-less freely, I must try for that thing by which I do not get again a body like this. Then I'll be anxiety-free. Even a small bird, if he sits here, he'll do like this—anxiety. You give him something to eat, but he'll not dare to come near you, but he has anxiety that you may capture him. He knows that. Therefore the material life means four things: we..., we require to eat something; we want a place for sleeping; we want to gratify our senses; and we want to defend from anxieties. This is material life.

Robert Gouiran: And may...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: May I... I agree completely, because I felt that when I could get a contact with the spiritual plane, I felt the protection. I felt that nothing could happen to me, not happen. As long as I was in touch...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: ...with this plane, nothing could happen because I felt I was in harmony. And when I went back, I took the plane, exactly as you say, at Colombo, I went by Colombo, and there was a storm, terrible storm when the plane took off, and the lady beside me was very frightened, and I was so enlightened at the time that I told her, "We are protected. I am protected. So if you are beside me you are also protected. So nothing could happen." And it was an extraordinary feeling. In French we call that providence. You know that?

Prabhupāda: Providence? Yes. That... When we are in danger, we remember the providence, but when we are happy we forget it. (laughter)

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)

Robert Gouiran: No, because I felt that when we reach this point, we, we are, we get to...

Prabhupāda: Anyway...

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Prabhupāda: At the time of danger, we remember providence or God. That is also good. So there is a Hindi proverb, that duhkse sab hari bhaje, sukse bhaje kol, sukse ajar hari bhaje, duhka ase hay(?) Means "When one is in danger, he remembers God, and when he is in happiness, he forgets God. Therefore if he remembers God always, then where is danger?" So our business is to become God conscious. Then there will be no anxiety. So we are preaching that, idea, that you become God conscious. Death is there. You cannot save yourself. Either you are on the land or on the plane, death will be there. You must be prepared for the death. But if by practicing remembering God, even at the time of death you continue to remember God, then life is successful. Death will be there. You cannot stop that. Ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). So if at the time of death we can remember God, then our life is successful. Therefore, before death we shall mold our life in such a way that always thinking of God. Man-manā bhava mad... Satataṁ cintayanto mām. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). This is life. We should always remember God. Then you must know who is God, otherwise how can I remember? If I have no idea of God, then how can I remember?

So we must know what is God. We must remember always God. We must become a devotee of God. In that way we can save ourself from the anxiety. Otherwise it is not possible. Because a God conscious man, he knows that "I'll die. Everyone will die; I'll also die." But his concern is, "At the time of death, I shall remember Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Then his life is successful. Death we cannot avoid. There must be. Tyaktvā deham. We have to give up this body. But the question is how I shall give up this body. The cats, dogs, they also give up their body, and I'll also have to give up my body. But shall I give up the body like cats and dogs, or as human being? That is the process. Therefore one should..., a human being should prepare himself how to give up this body. That is humanity. Kṛṣṇa says... (aside:) Find out this verse. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: Material body means again death. As soon as you accept this material body, either human body or cat's body or dog's body or tree's body, it has end. Therefore it is said, tyaktvā deham, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, giving up this body, no more accepting any material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). "He comes to Me." And that is the solution of all anxieties. So if you want to become anxiety-less, therefore we would advise you to become God conscious, always think of God, Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). This is the process, that so long we'll be on the platform of material existence, we cannot avoid anxiety. That is not possible. Therefore it is the duty of everyone to give up this material world and take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That will give us relief from all anxieties. (pause)

Guru-gaurāṅga: Is it clear? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...there is sufficient activities. Otherwise how can you become Kṛṣṇa conscious? In our Society we are doing so many things. We are sending our men. We are publishing books. We are distributing... Because: how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the only idea. Central idea is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So there is activity, always. From morning, four o'clock, until night, ten o'clock, we have got full program of activities. And all these activities are meant for how to become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think... When I was in college I studied chemistry, and I think many of the scientists that I also met, they felt very alienated from their asso..., from their relationship with nature or with God, because of their empirical approach to everything, of setting themselves apart from everything. Therefore they felt detached from the complete whole, almost as if an island floating away somewhere with no relationship.

Prabhupāda: They... You became detached from all material activities? No?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, just the observer.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is the scientist's point of view. He's just observing, observing, observing, and therefore he feels almost left out of it. So they want to participate. They're very attracted to the...

Prabhupāda: But he's observing himself or not? Or he's simply observing outside himself?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad-gītā says that he is observing his body, his field of activities.

Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad-gītā... I am asking...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's observing outside of himself.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he not observe himself, that "What I am? Am I this body? Or what I am? Why I am full of anxieties?"

Robert Gouiran: (French with Guru-gaurāṅga)

Yogeśvara: Yes. But actually that's a very interesting way of approaching the problem of spirituality, you see. We are learning that actually everything has some relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. So you are a physicist, if I have understood...

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Yogeśvara: ...a nuclear physicist. So you have a very highly specialized field of knowledge. So it would be valuable to see also what is the contact of nuclear physics with the...

Guru-gaurāṅga: Spiritual physics.

Prabhupāda: The spiritual physics... (laughter)

Robert Gouiran: Spiritual physics.

Prabhupāda: Yes, "spiritual physics" can be said.

Robert Gouiran: I should say that the word science is misleading. The word science is generally used by the opponent of science as a pejorative label. Because really, they don't know what science is. And they think that should be the enemy.

Yogeśvara: Let me relate the information little by little. He says, "The word science is misleading. Generally the word science is used by people who are enemies of science to make it, to pinpoint it, that 'This is the enemy.' So they call it science, a general word."

Robert Gouiran: Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are misleading. They have no knowledge, and they are misleading. The basic principle of knowledge... They have no idea of spiritual basic principle. They take material basic principle. Therefore the beginning of their knowledge is wrong.

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)

Robert Gouiran: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So on the wrong platform you may go, go forward more and more, but it will be dismantled because it is wrong.

Yogeśvara: What is the... Is there a... What is the nuclear physicist's idea about the origins of creation?

Robert Gouiran: Well, nuclear physics...

Prabhupāda: They do not...

Robert Gouiran: Nuclear physics has nothing to do with the study of creation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have nothing.

Robert Gouiran: Nuclear physics is just the study of the structure of matter.

Yogeśvara: The structure of matter?

Robert Gouiran: Yes. That's... How matter is done, as long as we could observe it. And how the matter is organized. And is it, is it possible to go in the deepest level where we could find the smallest particles? But nothing...

Prabhupāda: But so far nuclear weapon is concerned, so there is no much credit. Because it is a weapon for killing, death. Is it not? Not for that purpose?

Robert Gouiran: No, no. Nuclear physics in itself is just a pure research of knowledge. But the manufacturing of weapons, that's not nuclear physics.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Robert Gouiran: That's just business.

Prabhupāda: What is the nuclear physics?

Robert Gouiran: It's just a... The nuclear physics is just a search of..., the search of the structure of the matter.

Yogeśvara: The structure, how matter is...

Robert Gouiran: How matter is done at the most elementary level.

Yogeśvara: Finding the smallest particles of...

Robert Gouiran: That has nothing to do with manufacturing of weapon.

Prabhupāda: So we understand the matter generates from spirit. Just like I am a small fragment of spirit. You are also a small fragment of spirit. So when I am in the womb of my mother, so my big body grows. On account of my spirit, small particle of spirit, coming in the womb, in the womb of my mother, the body grows. So it is evident that this body has grown because the spirit soul is there. Suppose a dead child comes out. The matter will not grow. The material body will stop growing. Therefore the conclusion is matter grows on account of the spirit fragment. Do you agree or not?

Robert Gouiran: I... Do you mean that matter grows starting from a spiritual seed, something like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Robert Gouiran: If we, if we speak in scientific terms, there is an immaterial concept called the energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The spirit soul is also energy, and matter is also energy. Two energies, when they contact, the, the so-called expansion of matter takes place.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, and we could study in our laboratories the passage from energy to matter and back from matter to energy. It's what we call...

Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy.

Robert Gouiran: ...materialization. The process of materialization.

Prabhupāda: No, now, first of all, let us understand what is matter and what is spirit. Spirit is also energy, and matter is also energy. The matter, when it comes in contact with the spiritual energy, then it grows. Otherwise, it does not grow. Therefore the growing process depends on the spirit. Take this example, my body, your body. The spirit soul, when it is in the womb of the mother, then it grows. The abdomen of the mother grows also. But if the spirit soul is not there, then it will not grow. There are many sex intercourse, but if the spirit soul is not there, the sex intercourse will not turn into pregnancy. Do you realize this?

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then how the material body grows? Because the spirit soul is there. Is there any denial?

Robert Gouiran: We call in a way, what...

Prabhupāda: You call in any way, but the fact is this, that there is something when, in contact with that something, the matter grows. Otherwise it doesn't grow. That we call spirit soul. You may call it something else. That is a different thing. You can call in a different name, but matter grows not automatically. There must be in touch something with matter. Then it grows. This is a fact.

Robert Gouiran: And it grows by agglutination of particles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That may be. The composition may be. We take grossly five matters, gross matters, and five subtle matters. Five gross matters: this earth, water, air, fire, ether. These are gross matters. And subtle matters: mind, intelligence and ego. These are eight different types of gross and subtle matters. But they depend on the still more subtle thing. That is soul. If the soul is there, the gross matter, this material body, it grows, the mind acts, the intelligence acts, the ego acts, and as soon as the soul is out of this body, it does not act. It decomposes and again turns into gross matter. That's all. Therefore that spirit soul is the basic ground wherefrom the matter develops. Matter is developing, we can understand. A small child is developing big, fatty body. The elephant... But in the middle, if you stop, if you drive away the spirit, it will not grow.

Robert Gouiran: There is also something we should do, we do in that rat race when we study the structure of matter, that we could discover a new type of energies which could help humanity to survive. So it's not pure speculation. We don't know if it could be used. We don't know yet if what we are looking for is useful or not, but past experience has shown that humanity needs energy to live...

Prabhupāda: The energy is already there.

Robert Gouiran: Fire, electricity, or some other type of energy.

Prabhupāda: Energy is already there. You are working. I am working...

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...with energy. But what is that basic energy? The basic energy is that living force, life of the soul. And if that basic energy is absent, you cannot work any more. Finished.

Yogeśvara: (to guest) I think you're speaking about energy for like running machinery? Like solar energy and petrol energy, like that kind of energy?

Robert Gouiran: Well, the energy for this now, for this recorder.

Prabhupāda: Electric energy.

Robert Gouiran: For cooking your food.

Prabhupāda: Electric energy.

Robert Gouiran: Any energy you need to survive.

Prabhupāda: So energy comes from a source. Just like this electric energy is coming from the electric powerhouse. There is a resident engineer who is... What is called? (indistinct).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generating?

Prabhupāda: Generating, yes, generator. He is, somehow or other, putting the machine to get out...

Yogeśvara: Turning, turning the generator.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Engineer.

Prabhupāda: Engineer. So the electricity is being generated. So behind this energy there is the living entity, engineer. Otherwise it is useless; no more energy. If you drive away that resident engineer, the electricity will fail. No more energy.

Robert Gouiran: I see that, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to understand like that. So behind this big machine which is generating electricity there is a living being, who is pushing the button.

Robert Gouiran: Who organized it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without that, it is nothing.

Robert Gouiran: It's just to put (indistinct)...

Prabhupāda: Therefore, behind this big, gigantic machine, physical world, there is a living entity, a big, powerful living entity. He is God. We are simply sample of God, a small particle. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ. (aside:) Just find out this. Mamaivāṁśaḥ.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chapter Seven (sic).

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke
jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ
manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
(BG 15.7)

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are samples of God, small particles. Just like gold, big gold mine and a small particle of gold. Both of them are gold. Composition is the same. So we, the small particle of God, we are trying to create here so many things. The creating energy is there. Because we are a small particle of God, very small, so we have got so much energy, and we are planning so many things, because on account of that creative energy. So you can just imagine how much creating energy has got the Supreme Lord, of whom we are little samples. We are little sample only, part and parcel, very small particle. So we are creating by our mind... Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi. By our senses and mind, we are so many things planning. You are also working in the laboratory with that senses and mind. But you are the creating energy. So the struggle is that we are planning to become happy within this material world. That is described here: manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). Karṣati is simply struggling. That's all.

Robert Gouiran: Stru...?

Devotees: Struggle.

Robert Gouiran: Oh, struggle.

Prabhupāda: Struggle. We cannot do anything, because the bigger creative energy's there, and we are simply trying to combat with Him. Therefore, uselessly we are struggling. That's all. We cannot change. Because the bigger creative energy is different, prakṛti, the material nature. Just like they are trying to create living being in the laboratory. So suppose you are trying to create living being by scientific, chemical combination, so what is the credit to you? Millions of living being are created by the material energy. Where is your credit, if you cannot even create a small ant up till now? So simply you are wasting your time. That's all. Therefore it is called prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Eh? Just like the children are playing. What is the value of this playing? They are making some howling noise, that's all. What they can do? But they are thinking they are creating so many things. "We are (indistinct)." (laughter) So you all scientists, you are doing that thing. That's all. You cannot do anything. That is not in your power. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very, very difficult, physical energy, which is being conducted... Just like you have created this nuclear bomb, and if you take it and throw on the sun planet, what is the effect? Nuclear bomb, you can destroy something here, but when the... Your nuclear bomb will be destroyed if you throw it on the sun. Is it not? What is your calculation? We know the sun...

Robert Gouiran: If we throw... I didn't understand every word. You mean if we throw a bomb on the sun?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what will be the effect?

Robert Gouiran: What will happen?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: In the sun? It will burn.

Prabhupāda: Which will be burned? Sun will be burned or your bomb will be burned?

Robert Gouiran: The bomb will burn.

Prabhupāda: That's it. So your teeny effort...

Robert Gouiran: It's not my bomb. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: ...this physical science is nothing.

Robert Gouiran: I have nothing to do with that.

Prabhupāda: The biggest physical machine is going on. So it is simply childish playing.

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)

Yogeśvara: (French)

Prabhupāda: There is another example: just like the glowworms. When there is darkness... You know the glowworms?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Glowworms.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They give some light.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At night.

Prabhupāda: But when there is sunrise, what is the value of this?

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)

Prabhupāda: So your all this physical scientific advancement will be like glowworms in the presence of the scientific arrangement of God.

Robert Gouiran: But the scientists know that science is not complete, but we try to do it as the nearest approach it could do, and so on.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Robert Gouiran: Nobody claims to be complete.

Prabhupāda: It is just like the children. The children are trying to build castle on the sea beach of sand, very busy. Two, three hours, so long the father, mother is there, they're busy. But as soon as the father, mother goes, "Hey, come on," everything finished. So this scientific struggle is exactly like that—all childish, children's play. Therefore this word is used, prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. The living entities, they are trying to create so many things, but it is simply struggle for existence. It has no value. The same example: a children is building castles, skyscraper building. They're thinking, "This is skyscraper building." But what is the value of it?

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now, I have been in Rome. Those... Two thousand years ago, they also constructed big, big arena, Roman arena, this temple, that temple. Now they are simply relics. Those who constructed, they're finished. And where they have gone, nobody knows. And whatever they did, that is simply relics. That's all. So when they acted on these big, big buildings, it was very important business. The same building is standing, and it is useless.

Robert Gouiran: But the relic of a ship doesn't mean that the ship has been useless.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: His, he says...

Prabhupāda: No, no. For the time being. It is useless... Actually, it is useless. But for the time being, we are taking it very useful. Just like the aeroplane. It is very useful. But as soon as crashed, where is it? Whole thing is lost. But it will crash. Because everything material we are creating... Just like the big, big buildings. They're also crashed. The end is there. Anything material, it has got beginning, and it has got end. That is our point. So things which will end in due course of time, why we should waste our time in that way? And we are part and parcel of God. We have got different business. We have forgotten that. We are simply engaged in temporary castle-building which will be relics after some thousands of years. So are we not wasting our time?

Robert Gouiran: There is no end. It's only a transformation.

Yogeśvara: There is no what?

Prabhupāda: What is that transformation?

Robert Gouiran: You say...

Yogeśvara: There is no end?

Robert Gouiran: ...there is a beginning and there is a end. But I don't call it an end. It's just transformation.

Prabhupāda: The transformation is going on automatically. Transformation... Just like from ether there is transformation of sound. From sound there is air. From air there is fire. From fire there is water. From water there is land. That is going on. You are not doing anything. It is going on. This is known that this is the physical elements. Beginning is the ether. Do you accept it or not? From ether there is sound. From sound there is air. From air there is fire. From fire there is water. From water there is land.

Yogeśvara: His point is this transformation is going on...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: ...but what was one ship or one relic, now there's a new one. Is that your point? That transformation...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That there is no beginning or end to the energy.

Robert Gouiran: No, what I said before. I said that to say that the ship is now relic... It is full a time.

Prabhupāda: But you... That we admit. There is some temporary use. There is some temporary use.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, I agree.

Prabhupāda: Just like your body has got some temporary use. Your body... But the... Your body's working. You, you are a scientist. You are working. Your work is temporary. But the soul, as soon as the soul is gone from your body, your body will not work.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, but during his life my body has participated to a cosmic plane.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yogeśvara: He says, while the ship is existing or while the body's existing, it must be used. It has some utility.

Prabhupāda: That I admit. But you have to accept it that it is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: Oh...

Prabhupāda: It is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: Well it's a parcel of (indistinct) time.

Prabhupāda: I don't say that it is false. It is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: I agree it's temporary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: But my work is to understand what will be the next transformation.

Prabhupāda: That transform...

Robert Gouiran: So to transform the temporary in infinity...

Prabhupāda: You know or do not know, the transformation will take place. Take, for example, the ship. The ship is combination of these five material things: earth, water, air, fire and... And when it is destroyed, it again turns into earth, water, fire... So the conservation of energy is there. You simply give a shape, temporary, and it goes again to the same place, original physical elements. This is going on. But you are... You do not know that you are eternal. That is ignorance. So therefore the sense is that "If I am eternal, then why I am busy with these temporary things?" That knowledge is lacking. I am eternal. So now, as human being, I am busy in temporary things, to construct a big ship or aeroplane. But as soon as I change this body, I become a bird, I have no power. Then I manufacture a nest on the top of the tree. That is my business. Or... Because the body will change. That is lack of knowledge. I am eternal. In this particular body I am busy with some temporary things. And as soon as I change my body, then another temporary things. Eh? The... Suppose the big Romans. When they were Romans, they constructed all these big, big buildings. But if the Romans have changed into birds, they're no more interested in this body; they're interested in making some complicated nest on the top of the tree. This is going on, life after li... This knowledge is lacking. Therefore it is said, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni... (BG 15.7) They are struggling on this mat..., physical world by concocted mental speculation. That's all. As soon as the body is changed, then everything is changed.

Robert Gouiran: I agree.

Prabhupāda: That they do not know, that "I am changing this body, and I am getting temporary engagement and wasting my time. And... But my problem, the change of body, death, is there. The death is there. Therefore my real problem is how to stop this death." That we want also. We do not wish to die. That is our propensity.

Robert Gouiran: Are you interested to know how we produce anti-matter in our laboratories or not?

Prabhupāda: Anti-matter, I have explained that, this... So our anti-matter is different. Anti-matter means spirit. But your anti-matter is different.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, it's just a word to define something.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we mean..., anti-matter means there are two things, spirit and matter. So anti-matter means spirit. That is our explanation. It is not matter. Just like matter is destructible. Anti-matter means which is not destructible. That is... Any matter... (aside:) Find out this verse, acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam aśoṣyaḥ akledyaḥ... Find out...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam
akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca
nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇur
acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ
(BG 2.24)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So any material thing is chedya—you can cut. Any material thing. The five kinds of material things, earth, water, air, you can cut it into divisions. Or it can be burned. It can be evaporated. Or it can be moistened. These things are material things. But the spiritual means just opposite. It cannot be cut. It cannot be dried up. It cannot be moistened. It..., so many things. And that is we mean anti-matter. Just opposite. Which is possible in the physical world but is not possible in the spiritual world, that we say anti-matter. But your anti-matter is another matter.

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Another matter.

Robert Gouiran: Another state of matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: It is a state of matter which does not exist in our universe, in our solar system.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. But it is another material conception. And our anti-matter is... This is described: it cannot be cut, it cannot be dried up, it cannot be moistened, it cannot be..., so many things, which is possible in any material thing.

Robert Gouiran: That's the definition of energy.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: That's the definition of energy.

Yogeśvara: He says the definition you've just given of soul, that is their definition of energy, that it cannot be...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: ...destroyed, it cannot be...

Prabhupāda: That is, that is spiritual energy. Two energies. We accept two energies. One, this material energy, which can be cut into pieces, which can be dried up, which can be moistened, which can be burned. But another, spirit, that cannot be done so.

Yogeśvara: If I remember correctly from the little bit of studies that I did in physics, I think it's also the physical definition that material energy is also indestructible, that it's transformable, but not destructible. Is that correct?

Robert Gouiran: Exactly, that the, that the... I was telling the definition of the energy. And if we start from pure energy, absolutely immaterial, pure energy, this pure energy can transform itself in two parts. One is called matter and the other I call anti-matter. And these two parts, they can annihilate together, and then you have back to pure energy. That is definition, our definition, of anti-matter. The anti-matter is what is produced with the matter from pure energy, and what is annihilated by matter to produce again pure energy. You can't... You can't produce our matter, ordinary matter, from pure energy. It's impossible.

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. That pure energy is spiritual energy, and from that spiritual energy the material energy comes out. That I have already said: from the soul the matter grows. So that is spiritual energy. The basic energy is spiritual. And because the spiritual energy is the cause and the material energy is the effect, therefore in one sense you can say there is no difference between material energy and spiritual energy. Because spiritual energy is the cause, and material energy effect. Effect may be presented in different forms. Just like cotton is the cause of thread, and thread is transformed into cloth. But you cannot take cotton for cloth. The cotton is there in the cloth in a different..., transformed, transform, but you cannot accept, when you require a cloth, you cannot take cotton. This is a crude example.

So the cause of physical elements is spiritual energy, and the spiritual energy is... Both spiritual... Spiritual energy is coming from God. Just like... (aside:) Close. (sound of windows closing) ...the sunshine is coming from the sun, and in the sunshine there are so many physical transformations. Is it not? In the sunshine... Just like we, ordinary men, we can understand. When there is absence of sunshine... In your Western countries or in other..., the leaves of the tree falls down. And again, in the springtime, as soon as there is sufficient sunshine, immediately thousands of trees grows leaves. So there is action of sunshine. So sunshine is coming from the sun, and the sunshine is working in different ways, changing the color of the flowers, of the leaves, and... Or, so far I know, all the planets are..., they're rotating on the sunshine heat. Eh? So therefore the sunshine is the original cause of all material, physical things. But wherefrom the sunshine comes? That comes from the spiritual energy. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40), in the Brahma-saṁhitā. So that original cause is the spiritual energy. Therefore, because everything is coming from the spiritual energy, you can take everything as spiritual. The same example, like cotton is the original cause. Then it comes thread, then comes...

Guru-gaurāṅga: Cloth.

Prabhupāda: Cloth. Then comes coat or shirt or so many things. So cotton is everywhere. Similarly, the spiritual energy is everywhere, but it is transformed by different processes. Therefore the Vedic injunction is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). Everything is Brahman. Our philosophy is that everything being Kṛṣṇa's energy, everything should be employed for Kṛṣṇa's service. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The property is Kṛṣṇa's. By Kṛṣṇa's energy, everything has come into existence. Therefore everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Therefore everything should be employed for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, for His pleasure. Suppose you create something... You create some building, you create some family, you create some... So many things. You want to enjoy it. Otherwise, why you create? Why you take the responsibility of a family? For your enjoyment. Otherwise, who takes care of the family? So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person. He has created us, Kṛṣṇa's family. We also address Kṛṣṇa, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And He's actually giving us bread. Not only us; to all the living entities. So it is a big family, and Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. So we should all be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guru-gaurāṅga: (French—asks if guest has any questions)

Prabhupāda: That is perfection.

Robert Gouiran: Just to be clear about what is the scientific concept of anti-matter...

Prabhupāda: This is the scientific concept of matter. The matter grows from spirit. How you can deny it?

Robert Gouiran: I don't deny it. What I'm...

Prabhupāda: Then this is scientific. That I have already explained. So the..., the supreme source of everything is Kṛṣṇa.

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
(BG 10.8)

Read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prabhupāda: That's it. He is the source of everything. So-called material, so-called spiritual—everything coming from Him. Therefore everything transformed... Or not transformed. Everything is transforming. That's all right. Therefore everything belongs to Him. So everything should be employed for His satisfaction. That is perfection. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. After many, many births, when one becomes actually scientist, he understands, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything." (aside:) Find out.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
(BG 7.19)

Yogeśvara: (French)

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Yogeśvara: I was explaining to him that he seems some...

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: (French)

Yogeśvara: He's wondering whether there's some kind of information that he can supply regarding the scientific point of view.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Yogeśvara: Whether there's some information that he can provide.

Prabhupāda: This is the information, that matter comes from spirit. The so-called scientists, they are thinking that life is coming from matter. And that is nonsense. Matter is coming from life. This is sense. Where is the proof that life is come from matter? Is there any proof? We don't find any proof.

Robert Gouiran: But life...

Prabhupāda: You have got laboratory.

Yogeśvara: Life is coming from matter.

Robert Gouiran: But life come's from matter.

Prabhupāda: You combine matter in the laboratory and produce a life. That you cannot do. Then why do you say that life comes from matter?

Robert Gouiran: But what is life?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: He asks what is...

Robert Gouiran: What is this life we should..., we could not produce?

Prabhupāda: That you are speaking, that is life. If this life is not there, you cannot speak.

Robert Gouiran: So it's a speaking machine.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you are speaking because the life is there. That is life.

Robert Gouiran: So we can produce a speaking machine.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: We can make a speaking...

Prabhupāda: No, speaking, what is that speaking machine? If I speak, then it will speak. (laughter) That is nonsense. This speaking machine will speak when I speak, when the life speak. Otherwise it has no speaking power. Then what is the use of your machine if there is no life?

Robert Gouiran: But that doesn't tell me what is life.

Prabhupāda: Now, life means... Just like you say that speaking machine is an instrument. It has no life. But when a living man speaks, the machine speaks.

Yogeśvara: It is a study of the symptoms.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the whole physical world is a machine, and the Supreme Life, Kṛṣṇa, when He manipulates, operates, then it works. That is stated:

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
(BG 9.10)

Yes?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "This material nature is working under My direction."

Prabhupāda: This is... Just like the machine is working under the direction of a life, they are simi... (break) ...but not without God. That is this, it has no value. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). (aside:) Find out this verse. In this yellow book.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In that one?

Prabhupāda: No, no. In that yellow book. Yes, index.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam
(SB 1.5.22)

This is science. Idam...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā...

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 5.22. Page 252.

Yogeśvara: So we need the other volume.

Prabhupāda: Which part?

Yogeśvara: First book.

Prabhupāda: That's right, yes. What is the verse number?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 5.22, Chapter Five. Yes.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇava
(SB 1.5.22)

Prabhupāda: (correcting pronunciation) Guṇānuvarṇanam.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Guṇānuvarṇanam.

Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupāda: So if you have got scientific knowledge, you scientifically explain that God is the original source. Then your knowledge is perfect. What is the purport?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.

"When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord." Jaya, bliss. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So? Do you agree or not? (laughter) We welcome scientific knowledge. We don't say that scientific knowledge should be stopped, but it should be utilized to glorify the Lord. Then it is perfect. Otherwise useless. Means you don't get perfection. Perfection is when you scientifically describe the existence of God and His different energies, how they are working. And that is scientist, real scientist. Otherwise, theories, you can give your theory, I'll give you a theory... Temporary, that's all. So everything is there in Bhāgavatam, all knowledge, full knowledge. Vidvān bhāgavata-vādī. So vidvān means..., vidvān means one who has learned Bhāgavata, Bhāgavatam nicely. He's vidvān, factually. So you do not read all these things?

Robert Gouiran: I am sorry.

Prabhupāda: Always read. So many information are there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Does this mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if the scientists of the world become little bit directed and they use their science to glorify Kṛṣṇa, then they're actually practicing yoga?

Prabhupāda: That is success. Their scientific knowledge will be successful when by scientific knowledge they prove that God is the origin of the universe. That is success. That is... (aside:) Another verse you can read it. Idaṁ hi puṁsas... No. That...

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
(SB 1.2.13)

Find out the verse.

Guru-gaurāṅga: If their science is material, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can they...

Prabhupāda: There is nothing material before Kṛṣṇa. Because everything's coming from Kṛṣṇa. One who does not know Kṛṣṇa, it is material. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. Hmm.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "O best amongst the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord Hari."

Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. (aside:) Read the purport.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are the four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow up in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over the other. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as it is already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the division of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization, and not any other purpose.

"Herein the statement of Bhāgavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varṇāśrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, which is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (BG 4.13)."

Robert Gouiran: I have the impression that this translation is not very good, because when you define the four states of life and you translate the two last ones by..., mainly the last one, by devotion for sannyāsin. Sannyāsin is not devotion. Sannyāsin is...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll read that again. "Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life..."

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "...the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life."

Robert Gouiran: Oh, yes. I have another way of the fourth translation, the fourth one.

Yogeśvara: He says that the word sannyāsin should be translated as renunciation instead of devotion. The stage of renunciation, instead of...

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?

Robert Gouiran: Well, normal meaning.

Prabhupāda: No meaning?

Guru-gaurāṅga: The normal meaning.

Robert Gouiran: Normal meaning of the word...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: Usual meaning of the word.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the usual meaning of the word? First of all you say that...

Robert Gouiran: Renunciation is to get freedom.

Prabhupāda: Renounce means..., renounce means..., renounce means to give up. This is the ordinary meaning.

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is it not?

Robert Gouiran: In order to get freedom.

Prabhupāda: So...

Robert Gouiran: Absolute, absolute freedom.

Prabhupāda: So by renouncing you get freedom?

Robert Gouiran: Absolute freedom.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Absolute freedom, that's all right. Take your meaning. But do you think by renouncing... Suppose you are sitting here. You renounce this place. You get freedom?

Robert Gouiran: Uh...

Prabhupāda: Does it mean that you get freedom?

Robert Gouiran: No.

Prabhupāda: Or you are acting as a scientist. You give up that business. Does it mean you have freedom?

Robert Gouiran: Well, renunciation doesn't mean giving up.

Prabhupāda: No, renunciation means giving up.

Robert Gouiran: No, no.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Just find out. So what is the meaning of giving up? Why you should give up? You are occupying some business... Suppose you are working as a scientist. So why should you give it up?

Robert Gouiran: Why?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is a...

Robert Gouiran: Because it's..., it's a barrier...

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?

Yogeśvara: (reading from dictionary) It says, "The giving up of things, self-denial."

Prabhupāda: That's right. So renunciation means giving up. So suppose you are working as a scientist. You give up. Then what do you gain by that giving up?

Robert Gouiran: Because...

Prabhupāda: First of all, why should you give up?

Robert Gouiran: To get... To get, to get free...

Prabhupāda: "To get." The word is "to get."

Robert Gouiran: Well, I'm not English-speaking.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is the meaning. You renounce to get something else. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this renunciation?

Robert Gouiran: Just in order to get rid of the barriers which blocks the access of the spiritual plane.

Yogeśvara: (French)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotion. To work on the spiritual plane means devotion, devotional service. That is spiritual. Otherwise, what is the meaning of renunciation? Suppose you are working as scientist. You renounce. What do you gain? Unless you gain something better, then there is meaning of renouncing.

Robert Gouiran: I was taught... Well, if you are speaking about...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it has no meaning.

Robert Gouiran: ...etymology.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: "Devoted" means...

Yogeśvara: We were speaking about the verse in Bhāgavatam that says the perfection of all work is to attain that knowledge of the Supreme.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And to please Him.

Yogeśvara: So that is also the perfection for the sannyāsī. The perfection of his work also is devotion to the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: If you renounce something for zero, then what is the value of renunciation? There must be something better. Then you renounce. Otherwise what is the value of renunciation? To become zero?

Robert Gouiran: May I ask you what do you think about possibility of healing?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yogeśvara: Healing.

Prabhupāda: Healing? Where is healing? You are dying, and what is the healing?

Robert Gouiran: You don't think that people could have a gift for healing?

Prabhupāda: There is no healing in the material world. There is disease always. There is no question of healing. That healing is temporary. I am suffering from some disease. You give me some medicine. Does it mean that there will be no more disease? You heal that temporary disease. Again another disease. So where is the healing? So this is to be thought, that... Healing, that is the problem. There is no healing. There is always disease—this disease or that disease. If you prefer this disease heal, you are cured, and there will be no more disease; that is not possible. Another disease. You heal this, another disease. You heal this, another disease.

Robert Gouiran: So you think we can't help people?

Prabhupāda: Eh? You cannot! Can you help people to stop death? Or to stop disease? Or to stop old age? I am becoming old. Can you stop?

Robert Gouiran: I think so.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. If you think that you can stop my old age growing, then that is foolishness. It is not possible.

Robert Gouiran: I think there is a misunderstanding there.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am... A man grows old. Can you stop it?

Robert Gouiran: I can't stop time, of course.

Prabhupāda: That is we are speaking, that you cannot do anything. Even in spite of your so-called health, you will grow old. You cannot stop it.

Robert Gouiran: So you don't think that somebody could be an instrument to help other?

Prabhupāda: What is that instrument if this instrument is blunt, or what is the use of that instrument? Simply possessing one instrument is sufficient? It must work, but if it does not work? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop old age, you cannot stop disease.

Robert Gouiran: So you think that all healers are fool?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: Do we think that all healers...

Robert Gouiran: All healers are fool.

Yogeśvara: Do we think that all healers are fools?

Prabhupāda: I don't say fool. There will be intelligent, but they cannot heal. If you see they cannot heal, still they are very nice, that is your business. We say that he cannot heal. If you say that in spite of his being unable to heal, still he's intelligent, that is your business. I say that he cannot heal. What do you think?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You cannot heal. You cannot stop death.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot heal. How you can say that you can stop old age, you can heal disease? How you can say? You cannot... You can't stop death, you can't stop birth. You cannot do this.

Robert Gouiran: But when somebody has fall down, you can help him to stand.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Fall down, that does not mean you can..., you stop his death or you stop his birth, stop his disease. So the point is when I say you cannot heal, that's a fact. That's a fact. You can heal one disease; another disease will appear. Therefore you cannot heal.

Robert Gouiran: What do you mean by "you"? What is this "you" who can't heal? I don't...

Yogeśvara: Anyone. "You" collectively. Anyone. We're making the distinction between patchwork, covering over of some mis..., some malady, and making a permanent solution.

Guru-gaurāṅga: You, anyone. Anyone

Prabhupāda: "You" means anyone.

Robert Gouiran: You mean as a person.

Prabhupāda: You are also one of them. Either you or your friend, they cannot. It is impossible.

Robert Gouiran: So you mean that nobody should...

Prabhupāda: I don't say that. Why do you take in a different way? I say you cannot heal.

Robert Gouiran: Cannot heal.

Prabhupāda: Now in spite of this fact, if you try to do it, your business. But I say you cannot heal. If you want to go on, in spite of your inability to heal, that is your business, but I say I challenge that you cannot heal. That is my proposition. Now you go on with your business, that in spite of being unable to heal, if you go on healing activities, you go on. Who takes you? But I say you cannot heal. You are others also. Nobody can heal. What is that? Is that all right?

Yogeśvara: It's very strong.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact. It is fact.

Robert Gouiran: Do you mean that nobody could be cured?

Prabhupāda: Where is the cure? Show me that this man is cured from disease.

Robert Gouiran: To be better, if he suffers—from broken limbs...

Prabhupāda: Better, that is everyone is trying, that is... But there is no cure. If you think that temporary cure is better, that's nice, but there is no cure.

Robert Gouiran: So do you mean that healing is an illusion? Because healing is a fact.

Prabhupāda: But if you cannot cure, then where is that healing? First of all answer this. If you cannot cure, then where is that healing?

Robert Gouiran: But healing is a fact of life. I have seen.

Prabhupāda: What is that fact?

Robert Gouiran: I have seen healings.

Prabhupāda: Where is that? You heal some disease, and he gets another disease. Then where is the healing?

Robert Gouiran: Temporary.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: Temporary, he says.

Prabhupāda: Temporary. Therefore I say you cannot heal.

Robert Gouiran: It has been useful in its time... Like the ship.

Prabhupāda: It may be temporary... That is struggle for existence. That is said here, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi kartayam(?), they are concocting in the mind that "I am healing," but it is..., there is no healing.

Yogeśvara: Yes. You see, it's a question of perspective. In a suffering position you may say that some slight remedy is good, but you've not alleviated the suffering. The suffering is still going on. I remember one time, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave this example, it was very wonderful. You were saying the United States, they're very proud, "We have so many hospitals with very nice equipment, very, very modern hospitals." But factually that's not advancement; that's suffering. It's an indication that there is suffering going on. So depending on your perspective...

Prabhupāda: Now they're saying, "We have increased so many beds." That means suffering has increased. They are thinking that they have done so good in this so many hospitals, and so many beds have been increased, but that means suffering has increased. Otherwise why is the necessity of the beds and the hospitals?

Robert Gouiran: Yes. It's not because some American hospital are not healer that healing does not exist. It's just because it shows for...

Prabhupāda: No, no, they're trying. Everyone is trying to heal, American or Englishman or European, it doesn't matter. Everyone is trying, but there is no healing. That is our point.

Guru-gaurāṅga: He's saying that there is a value to temporary healing.

Prabhupāda: That's a... Temporary value, we also give. But we say there is no healing.

Yogeśvara: Ah, yes, healing in the sense that it will never happen again.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is in his mind, that he thinks that he is healed. Just like if you have a disease and then you have terrible disease that produces headache, and so you take aspirin to relieve the headache, but still the disease is there. So he thinks, "I am okay now."

Robert Gouiran: Wait, I see that taking aspirin is not a good healing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is example. The disease is still there.

Robert Gouiran: Well, but it is by such example that we could be misled.

Prabhupāda: That is good thing, that is healing? Do you think honestly, there is healing? There is no disease?

Robert Gouiran: I have seen healings.

Prabhupāda: What is that you have seen, that he is not diseased? You have seen a man temporarily healed, but why he suffers from another disease? Do you guarantee that there will be no disease? Can you guarantee?

Robert Gouiran: No more?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: No, because I don't know anything...

Prabhupāda: Then where is the healing? If there is disease, this disease... You simply distinguish from this disease to that disease.

Robert Gouiran: So how do you call a temporary...

Prabhupāda: That is admitted. That is admitted. I say you may have some temporary healing effect, but there is no healing. That is our point.

Robert Gouiran: So you call it temporary healing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. But there is no healing.

Robert Gouiran: So what do you think about temporary healing?

Prabhupāda: Temporary means temporary healing, that's all. Struggle only. Ultimately, you cannot heal. But you're satisfied by temporary heal. But we want complete healing—no more disease.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That is healing.

Robert Gouiran: But do you think that some people could have best..., better gift for healings, for temporary healings than other?

Prabhupāda: That temporary healing or best or worst, it is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: But, I mean, do you think that some people could have a gift for that?

Prabhupāda: You can talk with him. He do not..., he does not understand what I've been. I say there is no healing.

Robert Gouiran: Yes. I understand that. Of course.

Prabhupāda: That's all. You are business is temporary healing. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: My spiritual master is trying to stress this evening that because we are eternal spirit soul that our real business is not with this temporary body or with temporary cures. And therefore, because we are involved with these temporary struggles, karṣati, we're simply struggling time and time again to make something permanent out of that which is always changing...

Robert Gouiran: But how do you... Why do you eat? It's taking a medicine. Food is a medicine.

Prabhupāda: But we don't say that is healing. Temporary relief, that's all.

Robert Gouiran: Eating is... You...

Prabhupāda: That is not relief. That is temporary appeasement. That is all.

Yogeśvara: We can speak more on this.

Guru-gaurāṅga: It's getting late, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotees: We'll take our leave. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees pay obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Our point is there is no healing. That is all. Give him some prasādam.

Guru-gaurāṅga: We will give you downstairs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...clarify that point, that everything is Kṛṣṇa's, therefore it should be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. (devotees and guest leave)

Prabhupāda: Healing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nothing else. (end)