740401 - Morning Walk - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740401MW-BOMBAY - April 01, 1974 - 52:10 Minutes



Chandobhai: ...proktam adhidaivaṁ kim ucyate.

adhiyajñaḥ kathaṁ ko 'tra
dehe 'smin madhusudhana
prayana-kale ca kathaṁ
jneyo 'si niyatātmābhiḥ
(BG 8.2)

Very important.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are the questions. So the answer will be there.

Chandobhai: Yes, answers. Akṣaraṁ brahma paramaṁ svabhāvo 'dhyātmam ucyate (BG 8.3).

Dr. Patel: Paraṁ Brahman is akṣara.

Prabhupāda: Akṣara? First of all try to understand. Akṣara... Akṣara means "that does not fall down." That is akṣara. Akṣara and kṣara. The spiritual world is akṣara, and this material world is kṣara. So the living entities or God in the spiritual world, they are all akṣara. And in the material world we are all kṣara. Therefore akṣaram paramaṁ brahma. The Supreme...

Chandobhai: Svabhāvo 'dhyātmam.

Prabhupāda: Svabhāvam.

Dr. Patel: Sva means "own."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Bhāva means...? Bhāva (Gujarati)? Essence, essence.

Prabhupāda: Sva-bhāvaḥ means nature.

Dr. Patel: Nature. Sva-bhāvaḥ...

Chandobhai: Adhyātmam.

Dr. Patel: Adhi-ātma. That is the...

Chandobhai: That is real bhāva.

Prabhupāda: Adhyātma. Adhyātma means bodily and mentally.

Chandobhai: Ah, bodily and mentally, yes.

Dr. Patel: Adhyātma? Bodily and mentally?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Mentally. Spiritually... Inner existence.

Prabhupāda: No. Adhyātmam. Adhyātma. Ātma means body, mind and the soul, but here adhyātma means the body and the mind. That is material nature. The body and mind is made of material nature.

Chandobhai: Body and mind. Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...creation.

Chandobhai: Creation, yes.

Prabhupāda: So by working with the body, we create another creation.

Dr. Patel: Bhūta-bhāvodbhava... (BG 8.3)

Prabhupāda: Just like now I am human being. Next life I may be a demigod, I may be a dog. That I, creation. That is sarga.

Dr. Patel: That is karma.

Chandobhai: That is his karma. That is his karma.

Dr. Patel: What is karma?

Prabhupāda: Karma, anyone can understand. As you... Fruitive activities. You do something and enjoy the good or bad result. That is karma. You do something, either good or bad. So the result you'll have to suffer or enjoy.

Dr. Patel: But here is a very big question. I'm very sorry to... Who does the karma? Unless and until we have got ahaṅkāra in that, then...

Prabhupāda: The ahaṅkāra is there, false ahaṅkāra. You are thinking that "I am kṣatriya." That is false ahaṅkāra.

Dr. Patel: That is what I said. So doer is that. Ahaṅkāra is the doer.

Prabhupāda: That ahaṅkāra...

Dr. Patel: Then it is karma. Not otherwise.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you come to the material world, the ahaṅkāra is there, that "I... I belong to India," "I belong to America," "I belong to brāhmaṇa community," "...kṣatriya..." The ahaṅkāra is there. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. So long this ahaṅkāra is there, "I am this, I am that," all bodily concept.

Chandobhai: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But this karma. Here is the question of karma.

Prabhupāda: The karma... Karma means he is doing, but every, everyone is doing in his own way. Nobody..., nobody cares to understand the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is doing in his own way. That is karma.

Dr. Patel: Kiṁ karma kim akarmeti kavayo... (BG 4.16).

Prabhupāda: Ah, that will be explained. Karma, akarma, yes. (break) ...the same, material. Kṣara. Kṣara bhāvaḥ. That is perishable.

Chandobhai: Perishable.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Puruṣaś cādhidaivatam.

Prabhupāda: Puruṣa. Puruṣa means the soul.

Chandobhai: Soul. Jīva.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the jīva. Puruṣa adhidaivatam. Then?

Chandobhai: Adhiyajño 'ham evātra (BG 8.4).

Prabhupāda: Adhiyajñaḥ means Paramātmā.

Dr. Patel: Adhidaiva means jīva.

Prabhupāda: No.

Chandobhai: No, no. Adhidaiva, puruṣa.

Prabhupāda: Adhidaiva, jīva. Adhiyajña, Paramātmā.

Dr. Patel: That is what I said.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Adhiyajña is... (break)

Prabhupāda: Karma means which produces result, and akarma means which does not produce result. So that they do not know.

Chandobhai: And the vikarma.

Prabhupāda: Just like these activities, devotional service, it does not produce any result. And the ordinary man... Suppose they are also selling books. An ordinary man also selling books, it appears to be the same. But they are not creating any result. But ordinary bookseller, he's creating his result, pāpa-puṇya. That is karma and akarma. And vikarma. Vikarma means against the...

Chandobhai: Vikṛta karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes, vikṛta.

Chandobhai: Vikṛta, against śāstra.

Dr. Patel: Although the actions which are prohibitory...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: ...and if we do it, it is vikarma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Adhiyajño 'ham evātra dehe deha-bhṛtāṁ vara. Īśvara, īśvara.

Prabhupāda: Īśvara.

Dr. Patel: That means īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ... (BG 18.61). (break)

Prabhupāda: ...important thing, mām, Kṛṣṇa. They practice it, always remembering Kṛṣṇa. Then at the end of life, ante nārāyaṇa-smṛti. That is perfection of life. But how one will remember ante, then? There is a verse of... Just wait.

Chandobhai: Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran... (BG 8.6).

Prabhupāda: No. Just wait. There is a verse by Kulaśekhara. Kulaśekhara. Adyaiva viśatu me mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ (MM 33), he says. He says, "My Lord..." The idea is that "Now I am in quite fit order. So let me remember You and die. Because at the end of... At the end of... Kapha-pitta-vāyu, there will be disorder. Smaraṇaṁ kutas te. At that time, it is..."

Dr. Patel: How can there be the smaraṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Therefore, my Lord, I pray that adyaiva, immediately, because now I am fit."

Dr. Patel: Right now.

Prabhupāda: Right now. "Now I am fit. So let me remember You and die." So one must be fit. You see, even in daily, in dream, while sleeping, we forget so many things. Everything we forget.

Chandobhai: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So at the time of death, when everything is disordered, nothing is in order, unless one is very strongly practiced, how he can remember?

Dr. Patel: My father spoke oṁ, and he stopped breathing and...

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Oṁ, oṁ ity eka... That is...

Dr. Patel: Then he stopped breathing.

Prabhupāda: Then he practiced. That means he practiced. Therefore, either you practice oṁ or Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is all right.

Dr. Patel: Whatever we do of our whole, all our whole, all day of life, it comes at the end. That is why you must continue to do for the life.

Prabhupāda: Twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). Always Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... In this way practicing, if somebody is fortunate enough, he can remember.

Dr. Patel: Eṣā brāhmī sthitiḥ pārtha na... Sthitvāsyām anta-kāle 'pi brahma-nirvāṇam ṛcchati (BG 2.72).

Prabhupāda: So...

Dr. Patel: Therefore at the last moment you... But you can't get that last moment in this position, because you have, whole life, you have...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have spoiled your life simply in material activities, how you can remember?

Dr. Patel: But even if you are doing material activity by your body, and by your mental activities you are bhaja kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: But you are under the body. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Body and mind is working. Unless you practice to be above body and mind... That is bhakti-yoga. Māṁ cāvyabhicāriṇi-bhakti-yoga..., sa guṇān samatītya (BG 14.26). You cannot expect that you go on doing all these material activities and at the time of death you'll remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: That can't be done.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Chandobhai: Should be a real concentrated difference

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: When you do the work, you should be a real concentration.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Chandobhai: Therefore there is no... Because your attachment is more to the...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: ...reserves of that...

Prabhupāda: Vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā... (BG 4.10).

Chandobhai: Mad-bhaktaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Man-mayā mad-aśritāḥ. Unless he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa, these things are not possible. Simply by talking it is not possible. There must be practice.

Chandobhai: Acaropanam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)

Chandobhai: Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaram bhāvaṁ tyajanty ante... (BG 8.6) (break)

Prabhupāda: There is a risk. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi. If you are thinking of dog, then you become a dog.

Dr. Patel: Just as Bharata did it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is example. Even Bharata Mahārāja, such a great personality, simply due to little affection to a cub of deer, he became a deer. So these people are attached to so many things. So how much risk is there at the time of death they do not understand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam.

Chandobhai: Tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu mām eva... (BG 8.7).

Prabhupāda: Mām ekam: Then you...

Dr. Patel: Therefore every time, every moment...

Prabhupāda: That is... This is stressed. If you...

Dr. Patel: Mām anusmara yudhya ca (BG 8.7).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yudhya means "do your activity."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But always think. Just like these people are..., these, they are doing that. They are doing their duty. Somebody's going to there, somebody's going there, somebody's there. But their chanting is there. That is not avoided. That is not avoided. Sadā tad bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6). Then Kṛṣṇa favors, "Yes, he has done his best."

Chandobhai: Tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu... (BG 8.7).

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Dr. Patel: Yudhya ca. Yudhya ca.

Chandobhai: Mayy arpita-mano buddhir mām evaiśyasy asaṁśayaḥ (BG 8.7).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Asaṁśayaḥ. Because his mind is in Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter he's fighting. Fighting is superfluous. Real thing is mind is in Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: That is bhramara-nyāya.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Bhramara-nyāya. Because the small ant... (break)

Chandobhai: ...nānya-gāminā.

Dr. Patel: Abhyāsa-yoga, by... We explained that...

Prabhupāda: One... Abhyāsa-yoga... You practice this. Therefore we say, "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." This is abhyāsa-yoga. When one becomes attached to chanting, he doesn't require to be under discipline. But so long he's not practiced, he must be under... Just like a boy, he's instructed by the teacher, "You must give me at least four page handwriting." So four page handwriting means writing, writing, he'll be practiced. So therefore these are the practice. You must...

Chandobhai: Nānya-gāminā.

Prabhupāda: Nānya-gāminā. Because cetāḥ is..., mind is very flickering. So unless you fix up your mind under some regulative principle, then it is not possible. (indistinct) Everyone becomes paramahaṁsa: "Oh, I am now advanced. I do not require all these regulative principles."

Dr. Patel: What is paramahaṁsa?

Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa means he's above. Paramo nirmatsarānām (SB 1.1.2). That is paramahaṁsa.

Chandobhai: Paramaṁ puruṣaṁ divyaṁ yāti pārthānucintayan (BG 8.8).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramaṁ puruṣaṁ divyaṁ yāti.

Dr. Patel: Pārthānucintayan. By thinking about... (break) ...there's a mind set.

Prabhupāda: Smartavyaḥ satato viṣṇuḥ. Therefore one has to think of Viṣṇu always, twenty-four hours, in so many ways.

Chandobhai: Kaviṁ purāṇam anuśāsitāram (BG 8.9).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Aṇor aṇīyān anusmared yaḥ, sarvasya dhātāram acintya-rūpam...

Prabhupāda: This is the description of the param.

Chandobhai: Āditya-varṇaṁ tamasaḥ parastāt. Prayāṇa-kāle manasācalena...(BG 8.10). (break)

Prabhupāda: ...varṇa. That is... Āditya-varṇa means self-effulgent. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40). That is āditya-varṇa. Āditya is never in darkness.

Chandobhai: Prayāṇa-kāle manasācalena...

Dr. Patel: Prayāṇa-kāle manasācalena. Acalena.

Prabhupāda: Again... Acalena. Acalena means he has been practiced to fix his mind to Kṛṣṇa. Then, if he's successful, the prayāṇa-kāle, he must remember.

Chandobhai: Yes, yes. Here. Bhaktyā yukto yoga-balena caiva.

Prabhupāda: Yoga. Bhaktya. That is the bhakti-yoga. Not otherwise.

Chandobhai: Bhruvor madhye prāṇam āveśya samyak (BG 8.10).

Prabhupāda: Ah. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...they meditate all the life, the so-called yogīs. Something impersonal... Some light, like this, like that. Light may be also, if that Brahman light. But here it is specifically mentioned...

Dr. Patel: Especially spontaneously you feel some light...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, Brahman light. But the Brahman light, according to Bhāgavata philosophy, even one enters in the Brahman effulgence, still he falls down. Still he falls down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādhṛta-yusmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Unless one is fixed up in the personal form of the Lord, there is chance of falling down. They fall down actually. We have seen so many sannyāsīs. Just like at the present moment, Korpatali(?). He's now busy in politics.

Dr. Patel: One man married in America, some sannyāsī.

Chandobhai: Citrabhanu, Citrabhanu.

Dr. Patel: Citrabhanu, or... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...one is God.

Bhāgavata: Citrabhanu.

Chandobhai: Citrabhanu, yes.

Bhāgavata: Brahmānanda Swami met him in Mombassa, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was speaking all this nonsense. Then he went to America... (break)

Chandobhai: ...icchanto brahmacaryaṁ caranti (BG 8.11).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Tat te padaṁ saṅgraheṇa pravakṣye. Now He will tell us in saṅgraha...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: ...that padam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is Goloka dhāma.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Yad akṣaraṁ veda-vido vadanti (BG 8.11). That means impersonal. Veda-vido, one who knows Vedas.

Chandobhai: Viśanti yad yatayo vīta-rāgāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Chandobhai: You see, now He tells all the practice of the yoga.

sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya
mano hṛdi-nirudhya ca
mūrdhny ādhāyātmanaḥ prāṇam
āsthito yoga-dhāraṇām
(BG 8.12)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's... Artificially you cannot saṁyama. If your mind is not fixed up, artificially you cannot make. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad gata... (BG 6.47). One who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect yogī.

Chandobhai: But he has to be yogī at that time, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. Just like these boys, they do not go to see cinema, they do not go to restaurant. This is sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. You see? They do not go to anywhere except in the temple. They do not talk anything nonsense, except Kṛṣṇa. This is sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya.

Dr. Patel: They should not talk anything else except Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vacaṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). So this is sam... Unless you give engagement to the senses, proper, how you can control it? Your eyes want to see beautiful man or woman. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But when you are captivated by seeing the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, then it's..., that eyes being engaged otherwise is stopped. That has been explained by Prabodānanda Sarasvatī,

Durdantendriya-kāla-sarpa-
paṭalī-protkhāta-daṁstrāyate
(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5).

Protkhāta-damstrāyate. Protkhāta means extracted, the poison tree. The poison tree of the tee..., uh, teeth of the snake is dangerous. Now, here is a snake. Everyone is afraid, "Oh, snake! Snake! Snake!" But if everyone knows that his poison teeth have been taken away, then there is no more danger. Similarly, these indriyas have been compared with the kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. But...

Dr. Patel: What do you call?

Prabhupāda: Kāla, kāla-sarpa means the dead-poisonous snake, kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Everyone knows. As soon as you use some indriya, there is some dangerous result. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45).

Take for... (break)

Dr. Patel: Oṁ is God or Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Oṁ, yes. Kṛṣṇa says, praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. Praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu.

Chandobhai: That is oṁ in that way.

Prabhupāda: Because oṁ means Kṛṣṇa. That is mām.

Dr. Patel: I told you.

Prabhupāda: When one chanting oṁ, if he remembers just the oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Mām. Oṁ ity ekākṣaraṁ...

Chandobhai: Oṁ ity ekākṣaraṁ brahma.

Dr. Patel: It is ekākṣara brahma.

Chandobhai: Vyāharan mām.

Prabhupāda: Vyāharan mām. If he knows...

Dr. Patel: Vyāharan mām anusmara (BG 8.7).

Prabhupāda: Anusmara. If he knows that oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. If he thinks that oṁkāra is something else than Kṛṣṇa, then he's not successful.

Chandobhai:

ananya-cetāḥ satataṁ
yo māṁ smarati nityaśaḥ
tasyāhaṁ sulabhaḥ pārtha
nitya-yuktasya yoginaḥ
(BG 8.14)

Prabhupāda: So there is no need of doing this or that. Simply always remember Kṛṣṇa. That is the conclusion.

Chandobhai:

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

Prabhupāda: That is saṁsiddhi. They are mahātmās, those who are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. They are mahātmās. Not by the red dress. No, that is not mahātmā. Even in white dress you can become. If you always chant and remember Kṛṣṇa, you become mahātmā.

Chandobhai: Now there is a higher philosophy: ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16), mām upetya punar janma... (BG 8.15). No?

Dr. Patel: Mām eti janardana.

Prabhupāda: No.

Chandobhai: Mām evaiti kaunteya punar janma na vidyate.

Prabhupāda: Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ... Within this material world, these persons who are doing pious activities, they are promoted to the higher planetary system. But even if you go to the Brahmaloka—that is the highest—where you can get millions of years your life duration, but still, kṣīṇe puṇye martya-lokaṁ viṣanti (BG 9.21), you have to come back.

Chandobhai: Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17), rātriṁ...

Prabhupāda: Now He explaining what is Brahmaloka. That one day of Brahmā, you cannot calculate. And still, you have to die.

Dr. Patel: Twelve hundred yugas is called one brahmā...

Chandobhai: So our hundred years is nothing for...

Prabhupāda: It is nothing.

Chandobhai: It is a moment only.

Dr. Patel: Twelve hundred yugas.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not twelve hundred yugas. One thousand yugas. One thousand. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17).

Dr. Patel: Sahasra-yuga means four yugas, (Hindi) like that...

Prabhupāda: That... Four yugas multiplied by one thousand.

Dr. Patel: By one thousand.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Four thousand.

Prabhupāda: So four yuga means forty-three lakhs of years. Now, add three zeroes. Forty-three lakhs of years, add three zeroes. Then how many?

Dr. Patel: About four, about... Car...

Prabhupāda: Eh? Forty-three lakhs, as...

Dr. Patel: Car ardha...

Prabhupāda: Forty-three, eight zeroes.

Dr. Patel: Car... (Gujarati)

Prabhupāda: This is Brahmā's twelve days, uh, twelve hours.

Dr. Patel: Rātri. (Gujarati)

Chandobhai: Why not... There's a little question to ask: What are the Pitṛloka, Martyaloka and this...?

Prabhupāda: They are planets.

Chandobhai: And the Brahmaloka and all the...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are different... Just like Candraloka, Sūryaloka, Vāyuloka.

Chandobhai: What is that Pitṛloka actually?

Prabhupāda: Pitṛloka means the... There is a..., called a Pitṛloka.

Chandobhai: But then in the Pitrloka is it maybe that, there may be remembrances of the (indistinct) and all these things or...

Prabhupāda: No, these are all material.

Dr. Patel: Pitṛloka (Gujarati). They are all your past pitṛs.

Chandobhai: No, let (indistinct) from him.

Prabhupāda: Pitṟn yānti... Devān yānti... What is that? Deva... Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vrataḥ (BG 9.25). So those who are just like fond of performing śraddhās, karma-kāṇḍa, they go to the Pitṛloka.

Dr. Patel: We are all, I mean, ordained to perform śraddhā, all Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, Vaiṣṇavas do not do so.

Dr. Patel: We are... We, all are, all of us, are we not doing...

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: ...śraddhā ceremony...

Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava, Vaiṣṇava has no duty except serving Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Dr. Patel: That's right. But a Vaiṣṇava family...

Prabhupāda: No.

Chandobhai: Gṛhasthas, gṛhasthas.

Dr. Patel: Gṛhasthas.

Prabhupāda: He, whatever he may be. That is stated. That is stated that...

Dr. Patel: Only Jains can do.

Prabhupāda: That is stated that pitṛṇām. No, what is that verse? Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇām (SB 11.5.41). We are... Just like we are indebted to our forefathers, family, similarly we are indebted to devas, the demigods. Just like the sun is supplying light. So we are indebted. Deva, ṛṣi, to big great, big, big, saintly ṛṣis. They have given us the śāstras. Devarṣi, devarṣi bhūtā... Bhūtā, ordinary living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. And another, horse, is giving me service. So devarṣi-bhūtā apta, relatives. We take so much help from relatives.

Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam, ordinary human being. Pitṛṇām: and the pitṛs. So we are debted to so many. If you want to clear up the debts, it will take millions of births. (laughter) So devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇāṁ nayaṁ kiṅkara na ṛni ca rājan (SB 11.5.41). This man is neither servant nor indebted. Who? Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ mukundam: one who has taken... That Kṛṣṇa says, that "You just surrender to Me. I will protect you." So if he does not do anything else... One may think that he is being entangled in sinful activities because he does not do other duties. But Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So one who has taken shelter, full shelter unto Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require to do any so-called social, political and other duties. He doesn't require.

Dr. Patel: And here He means... He's about those pralaya. Bhūta-grāmaḥ sa evāyaṁ bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Rātry-āgame avaśaḥ pārtha prabhavaty ahar-āgame.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. When we...

Dr. Patel: Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ... (BG 8.20).

Prabhupāda: That is the spiritual world. That is the spiritual...

Dr. Patel: Yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati. That is pūrṇa brahma.

Prabhupāda: That is spiritual world. That is spiritual world, beyond this material world. So they have no information what is that spiritual world. Therefore it is said that... Here it is going on, pralaya, anya pralaya. During Brahmā's night, there is dissolution. Again creation. And when Brahmā dies, there is another dissolution. That is going on. But paras tasmāt, above this creation and dissolution, there is another nature. That is sanātana. That is eternal.

Dr. Patel: Yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati...

Prabhupāda: Ah, so why the...

Dr. Patel: ...avyakto 'kṣara ity uktas tam āhuḥ paramāṁ gatim (BG 8.21).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yaṁ prāpya na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6).

Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ mama. Now, again, He's come to mama. "That dhāma is mama, Mine."

Dr. Patel: Puruṣaḥ sa paraḥ pārtha...

Prabhupāda: And that mama...

Dr. Patel: ...bhaktyā labhyas tv ananyayā (BG 8.22).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktyā labhya ananyayā. Not ordinarily.

Dr. Patel: Puruṣa...

Prabhupāda: Ananya bhaktyā.

Dr. Patel: Sir, I am repeating: puruṣaḥ sa paraḥ pārtha bhaktyā labhyas tv anyayā.

Prabhupāda: That, the predominating Deity in that sanātana world, spiritual world, is puruṣa, a person. Purusa, a person. And He is achieved, bhaktya ananya. Not by mix—mixing this, mixing that; "This is also good. This is also good." No. He cannot. Bhaktya ananyayā.

Dr. Patel: Yasyāntaḥ-sthāni bhūtāni...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...yena sarvam idaṁ tatam.

Prabhupāda: Tatam. That puruṣa is spread all over.

Chandobhai: But He's not Kṛṣṇa. He is Kṛṣṇa also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Yasyāntaḥ-sthani bhūtāni.

Prabhupāda: All Vaikuṇṭha-pati, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa.

Dr. Patel: Just as (indistinct) saw a whole world within the mouth of Bala Mukunda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Within the body of Bala Mukunda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yasyāntaḥ-sthani bhūtāni yena sarvam idaṁ tatam.

yatra kāle tv anāvṛttim
āvṛttiṁ caiva yoginaḥ
prayātā yānti taṁ kālaṁ
vakṣyāmi bharatarṣabha
(BG 8.23)

That is the...

Prabhupāda: This is material calculation.

Dr. Patel: Agnir jyotir ahaḥ śuklaḥ ṣaṇ-māsā uttarāyaṇam... (BG 8.24)

Prabhupāda: Then He assures, assures Arjuna that "You are assured. Your coming to Me is assured."

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

dhumo rātris tathā kṛṣṇaḥ
ṣaṇ-māsā dakṣiṇāyanam
tatra cāndramasaṁ jyotir
yogī prāpya nivartate
(BG 8.25)

Prabhupāda: This is material calculation.

Dr. Patel:

śukla-kṛṣṇe gatī hy ete
jagataḥ śāśvate mate
ekayā yāty anāvṛttim
anyayāvartate punaḥ
naite sṛtī pārtha jānan
yogī muhyati kaścana
(BG 8.26-27)

That is... Now you come.

naite sṛtī pārtha jānan
yogī muhyati kaścana
tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu
yoga-yukto bhavārjuna
(BG 8.27)

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Sarveṣu kāleṣu. Not that sometimes here and sometimes there. That will take long time. But unless one comes to sarveṣu kāleṣu, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa...

Dr. Patel: Vedeṣu yajñeṣu tapaḥsu caiva dāneṣu yat-puṇya-phalaṁ pradiṣṭam...

Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). That is required.

Dr. Patel: Yajnesu.

vedeṣu yajñeṣu tapaḥsu caiva
dāneṣu yat-puṇya-phalaṁ pradiṣṭam
atyeti tat sarvam idaṁ viditvā
yogī paraṁ sthānam upaiti cādyam
(BG 8.28)

Prabhupāda: Yes. If one understands that all these pious activities, charity, performance of sacrifices and so many other things only by Kṛṣṇa bhakti can be achieved, then he's assured.

Dr. Patel: This is the last word.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...yuktena. Now just this woman is carrying a load on her head, how she's keeping balance? He cannot do that.

Dr. Patel: That is Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said. No, no, that is not Indira Gandhi. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said the same thing as you say...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...that she should remain...

Prabhupāda: It is not Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. This is śāstric.

Dr. Patel: While we're talking about all these things, but the mind is in the Lord there. Their mind is on the Lord.

Prabhupāda: So... (break) ...by abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8), everything can be done.

Bhāgavata: Prabhupāda, can you tell us maybe something about Lord Rāmacandra's activities?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bhāgavata: Can you tell us some things about Lord Rāmacandra's activities, today being Rāma-Navamī?

Prabhupāda: Now, you can..., some of you can speak about Lord Rāmacandra. No? Dr. Patel, you can speak something about...

Dr. Patel: About what?

Bhāgavata: Lord Rāmacandra's activities. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...tarān niyamena tiṣṭhan. (break) God is not obliged to accept your direction. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: God will not oblige the brāhmaṇas unfortunately. He'll oblige only the kṣatriyas. I don't know why.

Prabhupāda: Because He comes: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). That is kṣatriya's business. Sādhu protection (Hindi). This is kṣatriya's business. God has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. If you want to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā, it is difficult. (laughs) It is not possible. He says that "I have got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya..." Unless these two things are there, there cannot be establishment of real law and order. (break) ...everywhere, law and order. In spiritual also. Unless there is law and order, it is chaos. Law and order must be there.

Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the civilization.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the proper civilization. Before, when... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...civilization begins when the society is organized. Otherwise, it's cats' and dogs' civilization. That is not civilization. Unless... Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). The society becomes perfect when the members of the society can understand that this human body is meant for satisfying Viṣṇu. That is the beginning of organized society. So long they do not know that, that is animal society. Because the animals, they do not know that.

Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, they do not know. (break) They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme, Viṣṇu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions.

Dr. Patel: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Prabhupāda: Guṇa... Yes. So if the four divisions work nicely, then it is healthy society. Otherwise it is not. If different parts of your body work nicely, then you are healthy.

Dr. Patel: Each section of the society has to, I mean, work as a...

Prabhupāda: For the maintenance.

Dr. Patel: ...part of the whole.

Prabhupāda: Whole, yes. That doesn't matter whether you are śūdra or brāhmaṇa. Your aim should be how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is perfect.

ya imaṁ puruṣaṁ sākṣād
ātma-prabhavam īśvaram
na bhajanty abhijānanti
sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ
(SB 11.5.3)

Dr. Patel: They fall down from their own position.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya, śūdra. If you are conscious that "I have to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to my capacity of work," then he'll (not) fall down. He'll (not) fall down. (break) ...fall down from the position, then it is dead society. It is not living society, at the present moment. Yes. If you don't find actual brāhmaṇa, don't find actual kṣatriya, don't find actual vaiśya, so all śūdras, and there is no guide; therefore chaotic condition. (break) ...ship without rudder? What is called? Yes. So they do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any leader.

The leader, he says, "No, this aim of life is to drink and enjoy. That's all." This is going on. After diplomacy, politics, when they are tired, they go to the hotel or club and enjoy and drink. That's all. This is their aim of life. (break) ...there are even shops they indulge all these things, topless, bottomless, like that. Because that is the only solace to this materialistic life. There is no other. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is their... They have no other pleasure except that sex life. They have no information that there is another pleasure. That, they..., they are not educated. So they must come to the sex life only.

Dr. Patel: I think this has become very wild after the Second World War.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is always there. It is always there. That is material world. Material world means that, sex life. That's all. And if you increase it, then you increase your material life more and more. Therefore the process is tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). The brahmācārya is so much stressed. Tapasā brahmacaryena samena damena vā, tyāgena śaucena yamena niyamena vā. This is the process of human life. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human body is not meant for working hard like pigs for sense gratification. So they have been taught to become pigs. No discrimination of sex. The pig has no discrimination. So they have been taught. Not... When it is in śāstra, that means it is from the very beginning. A class of men are like pigs and hogs there are, always. So therefore Rsabhādeva is forbidding His sons, that "This human form of life is not to waste like the pigs and hogs." Then what? Tapasā. Tapo divyaṁ putrakāḥ...

Dr. Patel: Ṛṣabhadeva's hundred sons.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Tapo divyaṁ putrakāḥ (SB 5.5.1).

Dr. Patel: Eighty-one sons. Eighty-one sons.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. It is... Human life is meant for tapasya, but where is tapasya? They are simply teaching, "Yes, here is contraceptive method. Take." No... Wine shop...

Dr. Patel: They give it free of charge on the street.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is no question of tapasya now. Therefore the whole population is pigs, hogs and dogs. How you can expect peace and prosperity in this society? That is not possible. It is a society of pigs and hogs. Śva-viḍ... Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. If somebody says, "If the..., it is a society of pigs and hogs, then what about these leaders?"

Dr. Patel: They are bigger hogs and pigs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. That is stated: śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He's also a big paśuḥ. That's all. Otherwise, how he can dare to say that "Bhajana is nuisance"? Because it is paśuḥ. He's not even human being. Otherwise how he dares say like that? (break) ...reply that dacoit. If I reply, then I have to call him, "You are a paśuḥ."

Dr. Patel: And he told me...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...Girirāja, that he wants to reply separately. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...why...

Dr. Patel: His confidence.

Prabhupāda: No. Their reply is murkhasya latośādhiḥ. (break)

Dr. Patel: ...mārgam?

Prabhupāda: Mūrkhasya latoṣadhiḥ. It is very... (break) ...from this movement.

Dr. Patel: I have not read that letter.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: Which way it has come? Which way, that letter? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...barking, what is the use of arguing with him?

Indian man (1): No, I have not read it.

Dr. Patel: No, we have not read. I don't know how it came to your...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...talking of this letter of commissioner.

Dr. Patel: Oh, commissioner. (break)

Prabhupāda: They, because today's Rāma-navamī they're taking bath?

Dr. Patel: Yes, they are taking bath. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...says that "Why don't you go to the forest?"

Dr. Patel: But that somebody must have told you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. One of the important men. What is the name of that...?

Girirāja: Yogendrabhai.

Prabhupāda: Yogendrabhai. Yes. He's Yogendra. Yogī.

Dr. Patel: Yogendra Patel.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the sample of yogī. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2), and a yogī says that "Go to the forest." Eh? The rājarṣis are in the forest?

Dr. Patel: This is a mūḍha. (break)

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...garland, this girl. Garland just like beads.

Satsvarūpa: Make a garland out of stone?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not stone.

Satsvarūpa: Shells.

Prabhupāda: They are conchshells, small conchshells. They are called guñjā, guñjā. They are called gunja? (break)

Indian man (1): ...ahaṁ yogī nikitana.(?) So what is that? Can you give me some light on that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Karma-yogī means one who does everything for Kṛṣṇa. He's karma-yogī.

Indian man (1): One who does everything for...?

Prabhupāda: For Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): For Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Just like you are doing, doing some work. For whom you are doing?

Indian man (1): For my own benefit.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is karma. But when you do the same thing for Kṛṣṇa, that is karma-yoga.

Indian man (1): But (Hindi), if you do it for others, for Kṛṣṇa, for Kṛṣṇa's...

Prabhupāda: Others... Others means... That is also a humbug. You cannot do anything for others. You do everything for yourself. That is a false propaganda. You see? That is humbugism. So either you can do for yourself or for Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Indian man (1): I see.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Prabhupāda: (break) ...become a slogan nowadays. Nobody does for others. "For others," "For the poor," these are all humbug.

Indian man (1): You see people are doing so many hospitals, that is for others?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also puṇya-karma.

Indian man (1): (Hindi) Helping these temples, hospitals...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple construction is different from hospital construction. That is for Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): But suppose somebody's doing hospitals. Is it not for others?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But how many you can give shelter? A few. There are so many suffering people. You cannot provide hospital for all of them. The hospitals are increasing, and the disease also increasing.

Indian man (1): No, as you say that doing for others is humbug.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Humbug means he cannot do it.

Indian man (1): Ācchā.

Prabhupāda: He cannot do it. He can do to his satisfaction only. That is... That is also for his satisfaction.

Indian man (1): I see.

Prabhupāda: Because by opening hospital, you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. Then what you are doing for the others? That is for your satisfaction. Try to understand. Because you cannot do anything, but still, you are wasting your time. That is for your satisfaction.

Indian man (1): Naturally for myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You cannot do anything. The hospitals are increasing, beds are increasing, and the diseases are increasing. Then what can you do?

Indian man (1): We can do our own satisfaction.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...done not meant for Kṛṣṇa, that is for his own satisfaction. Just like Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent: "No, no, Kṛṣṇa. I cannot kill my kinsmen." That is a good proposal. But that was his satisfaction.

Indian man (1): That is very correct.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his satisfaction. But Kṛṣṇa wanted that "You must fight." And when he agreed to that, that is his perfection. Before that, he was trying to satisfy he.

Indian man (1): Yes. When he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, that was his...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only purpose of life. Anything that is done, that is useless waste of time. Therefore Kṛṣṇa particularly said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vra... (BG 18.66). That ekam. You try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only. That will give you perfection. Otherwise your own satisfaction, that's all.

Indian man (1): Yes, very correct, very correct.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you do, that is your satisfaction. That is karma.

Indian man (1): But not yogī.

Prabhupāda: No, karma. (break) ...for your own sense satisfaction, that is karma. And if you do it for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is karma-yoga.

Makhanlal: Pure bhakti and karma-yoga are considered to be exactly the same?

Prabhupāda: Exactly the same. Pure bhakti is above karma-yoga. Pure bhakti is above karma-yoga.

Bhāgavata: That is the difference between the Chapter "Karma-yoga" and "Karma-yoga in Kṛṣṇa Consciousness."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure..., pure devotion means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. (break)

Indian man (1): I read fifteen percent power cut from today in the state. They have not able to do the service in electric. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...cut, cent percent. (break)

Makhanlal: ...you're performing, that is the vaidhī-bhakti stage of...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Makhanlal: ...of the sādhana-bhakti, the regulative principles?

Prabhupāda: Yes, vaidhī-bhakti means regulative principles, and when you are accustomed, automatically you perform, that is rāga-bhakti.

Makhanlal: So vaidhī-bhakti is considered superior to karma-yoga then.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Makhanlal: Vaidhī-bhakti is considered superior to karma-yoga.

Prabhupāda: No. Karma-yoga is better.

Makhanlal: Karma-yoga is better?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Pure bhakti is superior.

Prabhupāda: Pure bhakti is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu-smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, that is pure bhakti. (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: ...formed by anybody.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: Karma-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Unless one is inclined to take to devotion, it is not possible to take to karma-yoga. Who can sacrifice the profit?

Yaśomatīnandana: Does karma-yoga mean to follow exactly the śāstras?

Prabhupāda: Karma-yoga means yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27).

Yaśomatīnandana: Doing only for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is karma-yoga.

Makhanlal: Which means?

Prabhupāda: "Whatever you do, you the result give Me."

Makhanlal: To Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: So we are also, those who are on the vaidhi-bhakti, they are also on the karma-yoga path because we are...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are acting under the order of the spiritual master. That is bhakti-yoga.

Bhāgavata: So when one follows the nine activities of devotion purely, that is pure bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāgavata: Then when he's following those nine activities, then he's superior.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhāgavata: Then that's superior to karma-yoga, to follow those nine principles purely.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Makhanlal: Rāgānugā-bhakti is also superior to karma-yoga then?

Prabhupāda: Bhakti is perfect stage. That is not for ordinary man.

Yaśomatīnandana: If we are working for Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda, what is the difference between karma-yoga and..., or bhakti, because they also mean Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Now go on doing your duty, you'll understand gradually. Don't try to understand in one day.

Bhāgavata: It will be revealed to us as we act.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the more you become in service attitude, things will be revealed to you. Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante (ŚU 6.23). Becomes... It becomes manifest. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau sam eva sphuraty adhaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). (break) ...answers.

Dr. Patel: What I will say now... I will make one man sit between the two, Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: You know what the paramahaṁsas do?

Dr. Patel: Uh-huh.

Prabhupāda: They are mixed up.

Dr. Patel: It is what I gave to that man. Mix up, then it is far better.

Prabhupāda: Then they are all paramahaṁsas.

Dr. Patel: Then let them mix. We don't mind. But they don't mix very good.

Indian man (2): (Gujarati)

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati conversation) But yesterday was I am. Next time I will...

Prabhupāda: Fasting.

Dr. Patel: Fasting yesterday, fasting (break)

Prabhupāda: Ramachandra.

Devotee: Till the sun goes down.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not the sun. Whole day till tomorrow morning. That is how you are fasting? If the sun goes down in the night..., daytime?

Prabhupāda: No, (Gujarati). But if one can continue, that's all right. (end)