740130 - Conversation - Tokyo

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740130R1-TOKYO - January 30, 1974 - 35:24 Minutes



Devotee: According to him, he hasn’t disobeyed the regulative principles of eating meat, intoxication, sex life. But he has some fantasyland in his mind, which he tries to live in.

Prabhupāda: Why don’t you call him, to talk.

Devotee: All right. Sañjaya! (break)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) So you have to learn so many things. Don’t confuse yourself as authority. Then you will be misled. Therefore one has to accept a guru, just to give him direct. Anything, any field of activity, if one is know…Ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad). One who is being directed by ācārya, he knows things. Not a vagabond. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Why one goes to college, school? Just to follow the instruction of the teacher, and then he becomes educated. This is the general method. Anything you want to learn, you have to approach a person who knows the thing. Whimsically, if you create something in your mind, that is a madman's theory. The Vedic injunction is, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to, if we are going to learn the supreme science, science of God... In ordinary life, if we want to learn how to typewrite, I have to go to a typewriting school and to put this finger that way, put this finger that way. We have to learn in that way. And if we are going to learn Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, you don’t require anyone's help: "Let us do anything whimsically, that is all right." It is simply ludicrous, that's all.

That has spoiled the whole spiritual life of the present humanity. Everyone manufactures his own way. There is no… If you learn to typewriting, you have to learn systematically: this finger here, this finger... Not that this finger there, this finger there. That is nonsense. You cannot do anything whimsically. This is nonsense. You have to learn systematically, scientifically. Then you are actually learned in that subject matter. And that is the Vedic injunction: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ. Do you read Bhagavad-gītā? No. You don’t require to read anything; you have perfect devotion. This is spoiled. Human life is so valuable, and in this life you can realize God, you can make solution of all your problems. And if you do whimsically and spoil your life, then the valuable, duration of life, this is not very good thing. If you manufacture, "This man is better devotee," how do you know he's a better devotee? You do not know. This is not the way. If you want to be educated, you must admit yourself as a student in a school, then in a college, then in a university. And if you say, “No, no. I don’t care for anything. I know everything. This is best school; this is better school,” what is this? A teacher who has refused training of the spiritual master, how he can become a teacher? Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ (BG 4.2). Our only request is not that we are canvassing, "Come to our camp." No. You must know the science, that is all. How to become devotee, you must know it scientifically. That is all. Otherwise you go to anyone who is there—there are so many other—but because you are interested, so you must know the science. Don’t do it whimsically. That will be spoiling it. That is all. If you say that one is better devotee, then you must explain who is a devotee. First of all this: you must know who is a devotee. And then, according to the advancement of devotional life, one is superior, inferior.

Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? I take from you, but you are not always present.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to know whether you should be benefited, or whether one is bona fide teacher. First of all you have to know. What is your question? How you are to know?

Sañjaya: Who to take instruction from, at given moments, given times.

Satsvarūpa: Aside from you—he wants to follow you—but if you’re not here, who should he follow?

Prabhupāda: I’ve got so many books. All my instructions are there.

Sañjaya: But I read the books with my mind, and I misinterpret.

Prabhupāda: Then those who are following me, you go to them, that "I am understanding like this. Is it all right?"

Sañjaya: But Siddha-svarūpa group was following you, and they were reading and interpreting. So I turned to them and asked questions.

Prabhupāda: But the thing is, Siddha-svarūpa, how he can interpret that he reads my book and he gives up my company? Is it very good interpretation?

Sañjaya: I never knew he gave up your company.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sañjaya: I thought he was still your devotee.

Prabhupāda: No. They have given me up, you see. Of course, Siddha-svarūpa, I do not know. He is not so fool. But these people, they are in Hawaii—Gaurasundara, and this Sudāmā Vipra—they do not come to see me. What I’ve done? Eh? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). When you have accepted somebody as a spiritual master... If you have given up spiritual master, that is a different thing. But if you accept somebody as spiritual master, you must come and offer your obeisances and respect. That is the first principle. They did not come to me. I remained there how many days?

Satsvarūpa: Two weeks.

Prabhupāda: Two weeks. I called them also, immediately. What Gaurasundara said? That I can come to him? Like that.

Satsvarūpa: They wanted you to visit their place.

Prabhupāda: You see?

Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you.

Prabhupāda: Something?

Sañjaya: Something nice, on their property, or their place, for you.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So something nice, therefore you can call your spiritual master, "Come here," as you call your dog? Is that very good sign?

Sañjaya: No, it is not good sign.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who will manufacture his own way of devotion, he is a rascal. It is not possible.

Sañjaya: So they are manufacturing their own way of devotion now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Their keeping long hairs, karmi? Yes. And what do they say? "There is no need of living in the temple. There is..." What is the... Just like you also said like that: "There is no need of living in the temple." What did he say? "It is better to live in the railway station"?

Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati.

Prabhupāda: In the railway station also there is rules and regulation. When the train comes: rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang. Why? Why you get up? "Oh, train is coming." Everywhere you go there are rules and regulation. You cannot find any place without rules and regulation. There is no possibility to escape rules and regulation. If you break the ordinary health rules, immediately you will become sick. You cannot transgress the rules and regulation of material nature. Immediately you become sick, and you’ll have to suffer. So there is no such thing as to transgress rules and regulation. You have to. If you challenge, that is your foolishness. Anywhere you go, you have to follow the rules and regulation. If you don’t follow, then you will have to suffer. Is it not? Anywhere you go. Anywhere, where you go, you’ll have to live under the rules and regulation of material nature. That you cannot escape. So where you’ll go, either you go to Japan or you go to America or anywhere you go, the principles of rules and regulation and nature is the same. Can you break the rules and regulations—sometimes they say "Keep to the right,""Keep to the left"? That is not possible. If you want to drive your car on the street, you must follow the rules. Can you transgress the red light and yellow light? No. Where is the possibility of becoming independent? Is there any possibility? Anywhere you go.

Sañjaya: No, there is always some law or some rule and regulation.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. So how you’ll avoid that? And above all, just like you are a nice young boy, so you have to follow the rules and regulation to become an old man like me. Can you avoid?

Sañjaya: No way around it.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the possibility of breaking rules and regulation? If you don’t follow, you’ll be forced to follow. That is criminality. When you are forced to follow, that is criminality. And if you voluntarily follow, that is civility. You cannot avoid. There is no such chance. The rules and regulation, nature's law,

janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-
duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam
(BG 13.9)

One has to take birth, to come to the material world, through the agency of father and mother. That father and mother may be human being or cats and dogs or anyone, but this is the rule. Through the father and mother you have to come. Can anyone avoid that, that "Without father and mother I will come"? (laughter) So the beginning of your life there are rules and regulation. Huh? Similarly, as soon as you become old, natural death. It is not that…, that you can avoid death. You must die—today or tomorrow or a hundred years after. You must die. "As sure as death." Then? Can you avoid the rules and regulation? You cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your birth; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your death; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of falling sick; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your becoming old. You have to follow. But at heart we have got a tendency to think like that, that "How I can avoid these rules and regulation?" That tendency's there. That is possible when you are liberated. So long you are under the rules and regulation of the material nature, you cannot avoid. But when you’re liberated from the clutches of māyā, then you can avoid. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: how to become liberated from these rules and regulation. Within the jail you cannot break rules and regulation. You must follow. If you don’t follow, then you’ll be more punished.

So when one is liberated from the jail, he is free. Similarly, so long we get this material body, we have to follow the rules and regulations of material laws. We cannot avoid. If you don’t follow, you’ll be more punished. Just like a human being: he's given the chance, a better form of life than the other animals. But if he does not follow the rules and regulation of a human being, he’ll again going to cat and dog. Can you avoid it? Then?

Sañjaya: The rule and regulation for the human being is to learn to love God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only business of human being.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
(SB 1.2.6)

That is first-class occupational duty: how to learn to love God.

Sañjaya: And we can only learn through a bona fide spiritual master? Through the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is the representative of God. So if you cannot love your spiritual master, how you can love God? If you love me, you love my dog. Suppose you love somebody, and in his presence you kick his dog. Will he be pleased?

Sañjaya: He will not.

Prabhupāda: He will immediately, “You rascal, you don’t come here. Get out!” Therefore it is common saying, "If you love me, love my dog, first." So if you love God's dog, then God automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo (ŚrīŚrī Gurv-aṣṭaka). If he is pleased, then God automatically is pleased—even if you’re wrong. This is the way. These boys, they are doing that. I am an Indian; I’ve come from foreign country. I did not bring any riches for them, or bribe them. Why they are following? Out of love.

Sañjaya: That's why I am following you, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: But if you live alone in the railway station, how you can follow? Huh? Just like a boy and girl, love: "Yes, you live three thousand miles away, and I live three thousand miles away, and still we love." What is that love? Love, there are six symptoms,

dadāti pratigṛhṇāti
guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati
bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva
ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam
(Upadeśāmṛta 4)

These symptoms of love means one must give and take. One must disclose his mind and take instruction. One must give him to eat, and one must take something from him to eat. These are the six symptoms of love. Give and take. Just like you have given me this flower, so you have given. So if I instructed, "You take it," that is give and take. If I offer you prasādam, you should bring some foodstuff. You should disclose your mind, and you should say that "This is my problem; you should hear me." This is a symptom of love. Everything is there.

dadāti pratigṛhṇāti
guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati
bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva
ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam
(Upadeśāmṛta 4)

So our only request is that our business is we are in this old age traveling four times in a year. What is material benefit out of it? I am old man. I cannot move. I am eighty years, and two years less. Naturally this is not the age for traveling, retirement. But why I am traveling? Because I wanted to satisfy my Guru Mahārāja. That is the only reason. I wanted to satisfy the desire of my Guru Mahārāja, the desire of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And therefore at night I don’t sleep; I dictate. I publish this book. I go from country to country, village to village, town to town. And they also reciprocate, these boys. They’re helping me, how to publish these book, these boys. That boy is editing twenty-four hours; he is typing. Do I pay them anything?

Sañjaya: Not material.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is love. "I go away from Guru Mahārāja and live four hundred miles away, and I love Guru Mahārāja." This is not… Nonsense. You show some symptoms of love, that "My Guru Mahārāja wants to do this. Oh, I must help him." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted, prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram: "As many towns and villages are there, everywhere must there be—I mean to say—broadcasting My missionary activities." So my Guru Mahārāja attempted that. Everyone should attempt. Anyone who is followers... Just like any, any religion, any system. Just like a Christian, if he is real Christian, if he is actually following Lord Jesus Christ, Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill." He must propagate, "You shall not kill." But where is that Christian who is propagating? They are killing. On the other hand they are killing. Is that a good Christian?

Sañjaya: They are not following, so they are not good.

Prabhupāda: That is the... you see. It is clearly said in the first commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." So every Christian, they must preach this cult. That is Christian. And he's helping killing, and he's a Christian? Similarly, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram: "As many towns and villages are there, you must preach this cult." That is really devotee, one who is doing this. He may not be very successful preacher; that doesn’t matter. Because he is doing that, he is first-class devotee. Anywhere you go, that is real love. That is real follower. What his predecessor has ordered, that must be done. At any risk. It doesn’t matter whether it is being nicely done or not nicely done—because he is attempting to do that, that is sufficient. That very attempt will make him successful. This is the principle. You see? Uh, we must... Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ. Unfortunately, you do not read. What for we are publishing so many books, for the enlightenment of the people?

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
(BG 2.41)

Find this verse.

Nitai: Gita, second chapter.

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
(BG 2.41)

"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Who are irresolute." Now, our only resolution was that "Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Let me try it." And with resolute purpose, I tried it. And therefore, I do not know, but people say that I have done very wonderful. People say that. Even in our countrymen, those who are not very favorably disposed to, they also admit that I have done something wonderful. But what is the secret of this success? That resolution, that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted this. I shall try my best to do this," that's all. I have no other secrets. Rather, I was doubtful, that "What I have got position, how people will understand? Still, let me try my best," that's all.

Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do?

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do?

Prabhupāda: That I have already advised. Where is Bhanu?

Devotee: He is busy with the Deities now.

Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Japan… Why Japan? Anywhere. This is, at the present moment, the whole civilization is demonic. Whole civilization. The demons, they will not very much inclined to hear about philosophy. They are not inclined. There is a Bengali saying, churā na mane ghar me kayi (?). Suppose a man is thief, and if you instruct him good lessons, “My dear man, you are stealing. It is not very good. You are doing, so you’ll have to suffer misery,” does he care for it? Does he care? "Oh, you rascal, go on talking; I shall do my own business." So churā na, he is a churā, he's a thief. You give him good philosophy, he will not hear. Then, how to cure him? That is given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

harer nāma harer nāma
harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva
nāsty eva…
(CC Adi 17.21)

Give him chance to hear this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Chant yourself, either by this karatāla and drums. If it is prohibited, then distribute books. This is also chanting, just like we recite it. Somehow or other, let him hear something about us. This is chanting, śravanaṁ. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), through chant and hear. If he's not chanting, let him hear. If he's not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you chant; let him hear. That will cure. So that is the way.

So in Japan or anywhere, everyone is demon. These wonderful things... And we’re thinking the material advancement. Suppose this Dictaphone… This Dictaphone is all right, so long it is used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The 747 airplane is very good, so long it carries devotees for preaching work. This is the philosophy.

nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe
yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate
(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255)

Everything must be... So we do not hate anything, because we know that everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if that thing is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is perfect. That is perfect. We are using everything—the electricity, the Dictaphone, the table—but we are not using it for sense gratification. Every moment we are engaged. Avyartha-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18), that is higher advance, that "This time I have passed, what I have done for Kṛṣṇa?" This is character of advancement: "What I have done for Kṛṣṇa? What I have done for my Guru Mahārāja?" If in this way we lead our life, that is perfect. That is perfect. "Guru Mahārāja has entrusted me with this business. How far I have done this?" that is perfect.

So if you don’t care for your Guru Mahārāja, don’t care for Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and you do whimsically what you like, that is not progress. That is degradation. These are the formula: avyartha... nāma-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32), avyartha-kālatvaṁ, prītis tad-vasati-sthale (CC Madhya 23.19). The advanced devotee will feel like this: "How I shall live in a temple or in a place like Vṛndāvana and Mathurā, prītis tad-vasati-sthale?" Prīti means love—to live there, where Kṛṣṇa's devotee is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa's temple is there. Not in the railway station. Prītis tad-vasati-sthale. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci, always hankering after "How I can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra?"Nāma-gāne sadā. Avyartha-kālatvaṁ, to scrutinizely seeing whether I have wasted my time without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things are the symptoms of advanced devotee. You cannot say, “Oh, he's advanced.” What he's doing for Kṛṣṇa? First of all think, “He's advanced devotee; that is all right. But what is he doing for his guru? What is he doing for his... Kṛṣṇa?” That is a test. If somebody is doing something whimsically, he is not advanced devotee. He may speak all nonsense, but that is not advancement. You have to see practically: what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa, what is he's doing for his spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). These are the process.

So you are a very nice boy, I see. Everyone has got potency, but you have got a special inclination. So my request is that don’t spoil your life. Life is very valuable. You do not imagine, concoct something, and follow. That will not help. You must follow the standard rules and regulations, standard way. Then you will be successful. Don’t do anything whimsically. That will not help. That is our request.

Sañjaya: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances)

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, now generally we have Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam class.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, want me?

Devotee: Please.

Prabhupāda: Alright, let us go? (end)