740120 - Lecture SB 01.16.24 - Honolulu

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



740120SB-HONOLULU - January 20, 1974 - 61:08 Minutes



Pradyumna: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. (devotees repeat) (leads chanting of verse)

idaṁ mamācakṣva tavādhimūlaṁ
vasundhare yena vikarśitāsi
kālena vā te balināṁ balīyasā
surārcitaṁ kiṁ hṛtam amba saubhagam
(SB 1.16.24)

(Prabhupāda corrects pronunciation of tavādhimūlaṁ when devotees chant) (break) (leads chanting of synonyms) (break)

(03:29)

Translation: "Mother, you are the reservoir of all riches. Please inform me of the root cause of your tribulations, by which you have been reduced to such a weak state. I think that the powerful influence of time, which conquers the most powerful, might have forcibly taken away all your fortune, which was adored even by the demigods."

Prabhupāda: Kālena vā te balināṁ balīyasā. Time is very powerful. Another place in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā.

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā
(SB 1.5.18)

So in due course of time, everything happens. That is the nature's law. When I was also a child, I was looking very beautiful, but kālena, in due course of time, I'm now old man, a ugly man. Nobody likes. (laughter) So this is the influence of time. Influence of time. So influence of time will act. You cannot check it. Influence of time, that is nature's law. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). That is māyā's strength. How you can check? It is not in your power.

So this is another question by Dharmarāja to Mother Earth, "Whether you are now in tribulation by the influence of time?" Surārcitaṁ kiṁ hṛtam amba saubhagam. So we should remember saubhagam, opulence, can be taken away in due course of time. You cannot check it. Suppose in America you are all fortunate. You have got very nice roads, very nice cars, very nice skyscraper building, government, food, everything very nice. But in due course of time everything can be taken away. You cannot check it. Śāstra says therefore, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Everything will be taken away, or ultimately, destruction. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can find out, somebody, the verse, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham. In due course of time, death will come, and it will take everything what you possess. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. That death is Kṛṣṇa.

Pradyumna:

mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham
udbhavaś ca bhaviṣyatām
kīrtiḥ śrīr vāk ca nārīṇāṁ
smṛtir medhā dhṛtiḥ kṣamā
(BG 10.34)

"I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience."

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is acting everywhere by His energy. This kāla, this time, is another form of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa has got various forms, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Advaita: one, without a second. Acyuta: does not fall. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. We are part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is acyuta; He does not fall down. We fall down. This is the difference. The example is... Just like the fire, big fire, and the sparks, they are also fire. The quality of big fire and the small sparks of fire, they're the same. Therefore qualitatively, we are one with Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa has got propensities, we have got also propensities. Kṛṣṇa has got creative power; we have also got creative power. In this way, compare anything. In minute quantity... Kṛṣṇa has got independence, full independence; we have got independence, but not full independence. But we have got independence. So that is the difference. Advaita acyuta anādi ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa has got various forms, but His real form is Kṛṣṇa. God has got many forms, but the original form is that playing on flute, curved in three places with barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam, with a feather on the head. These are Vedic description of Kṛṣṇa. It is not an artistic paint, but it is taken from the Vedic literature, what is the original form of Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. That is original form. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28).

Advaitam acyutam anādi-rūpam, ananta-rūpam. Ananta, unlimited, unlimited. It is described in the śāstras. How unlimited? Just like in a big river you sit down, or on the ocean, if you count the waves, is it possible? There is no possibility. But there are waves always, twenty-four hours going on, going on. But if you want to count them, it is not possible. That is described. Just like the waves of river or... Not satiated. You'll find in the Pacific Ocean in your front, the waves are constantly coming. It is never satiated. So Kṛṣṇa's incarnation are also like that: incessantly coming, one after another, one... Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. So ananta-rūpa, how many rūpa, how many forms we have seen Kṛṣṇa's? No. That is not possible.

So the conclusion is all these forms, ete, "all these," ca aṁśa-kalāḥ... Aṁśa means plenary portion, not personally. Aṁśa... And kalā means portion of the portion. Just like first of all, Kṛṣṇa. Then His next expansion is Balarāma. His next expansion is Saṅkarṣaṇa. Next, Aniruddha, Pradyumna. Saṅkarṣaṇa, Aniruddha, Pradyumna. In this way, next expansion Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, another quadruple expansion: Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Saṅkarṣaṇa... Then Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of this material creation. Yaḥ kāraṇārṇava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidrām ananta-jagad-aṇḍa-saroma-kūpaḥ (Bs. 5.47). Yaḥ kāraṇārṇava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidrām anantam. That is Mahā-Viṣṇu. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So from His breathing nostril, ananta, unlimited number of potential universes are coming, and—exhaling, inhaling—and unlimited going within. This is Mahā-Viṣṇu. This Mahā-Viṣṇu is also plenary portion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa. So many things are described in the Brahma-saṁhitā. But still, He is acyuta, anādi. He has no cause. He is causeless. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1): He is the cause of everyone, but He has no cause. Anādi, anantam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyam purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He's the origin person, original person, purāṇa, very old, must be very old, because everything... Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). From Him, everything has come. Therefore purāṇa. Purāṇa means old. Nūtana and purāṇa. Nūtana means "just very recently," and purāṇa means very old.

So we are also old. In the Bhagavad-gītā you find this verse, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Do you remember, any one of you, this verse from the Bhagavad-gītā? Eh? But you don't read. So I am writing all these books simply for selling, not for reading. This is not good. And if somebody asks you, "You are so much eager to sell your books. Do you read your books?" then what you will say? "No, sir, we don't read. We sell only. Our Guru Mahārāja writes, and we sell." That is not good business. You must read. Why I am writing so many books? Not a single moment waste. If you want to become successful in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, don't lose even a single moment. That should be the first determination. Avyartha-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18-19), Rūpa Gosvāmī says. Forget sleeping, eating, mating. This is all material necessities. If you increase these things, then you cannot make any progress in spiritual life.

Therefore we say, "No illicit sex, no intoxication." You are already intoxicated. Why you are increasing intoxication? This māyā means intoxication. Piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna... (Prema-vivarta 1) Just like a person, when he's ghostly haunted, he calls his father by ill names, but he cannot recognize even his father. So all of us, we are already under the clutches of māyā. That is the position of intoxication. And again intoxication? So what will be our condition? So therefore it is prohibited. First of all, whatever intoxication you have already got, just try to cure it. Don't increase it. So everything... The physical necessities means we have already got it. But it is meant for decreasing, not increasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalā (Manu-saṁhitā). We have got general tendency, loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā (SB 11.5.11). Everything is there in the śāstra. Nityā hi jantoḥ. Jantu means living entities. So, it is eternally existing, loke vyavāya, sex intercourse; āmiṣa, eating non-fruital things. Āmiṣa means "which is not fruits and vegetable." Meat, fish, eggs, they are called āmiṣa. And they are called nirāmiṣa. Nirāmiṣa means fruits, vegetable, milks, food grains, sugar. These are nirāmiṣa. And eggs, fish, meat and so many other things, they are called āmiṣa. So āmiṣa. Āmiṣa means these things. Sevā, eating. And vyavāya. Vyavāya means sex life. Loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya, intoxication.

It is not that Vedic civilization did not know how to eat meat and how to drink liquor. It is all known. But they are prohibited: "Don't eat." It is not that then they were unknown; now it is discovered by scientific advancement. Nitya loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā nityā astu, nityāsti, asti, it is there. It is not that because one is not educated how to use sex life... Nobody requires education. It is automatical. But people are now very much advanced in understanding sex life—so many books, Freud philosophy, this philosophy. And after all, this is already there. What is the need of philosophy? Without your rascal philosophy, everyone knows how to use sex life. But they are thinking this is advancement. Nitya asti. It is already there. Who was speaking yesterday? Jayatīrtha. That his niece, seven years old, she is also dating. So this is already there.

So to increase it, no credit. To decrease it is credit. That is credit. Nityāsta jantoḥ. It is already there. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānām. Bhūtānām means "of all living entities." Amongst the ants, they are very intoxicant; therefore they find out sugar. The all kinds of liquor preparation is made from sugar. You know that? Sugar is fermented with acid and then distilled, it becomes liquor. And the ants are very much fond of sugar. You keep up one piece of sugar candy, then the news will be immediately spread, and all the ant class will go there: "Here it is, sugar." Yes. Gold rush. (laughter) You see?

So every living entity has got a tendency for certain class of thing, especially sex and eating nonvegetarian things. If you eat vegetarian fruits and flowers and grains, you'll not eat more than you require. That is nature. You'll eat only what is needed by yourself. You cannot eat any more. It is very good. If you don't eat... Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ (NOI 2). Atyāhāra, eating more than needed, is against spiritual life. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ. Everything is there. Rūpa Gosvāmī has said. Atyāhāra means eating more than you require, or eating, enjoying more than. We require, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. We require little, little everything. (break) ...for spiritually advancing. They remain without dress. Even in the severest type of cold, they remain without dress, sitting, only smearing the body with some ashes. They'll take bath in the morning and cover the body with ashes—not very thick. But he'll sit down whole day and night and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. No business. No endeavor for food. If food comes by God's grace, they will eat; otherwise no, they'll not go anywhere. Completely dependent: "If God gives, then I shall eat. Otherwise we shall not endeavor." This is our first endeavor, what to eat, where to live, where to sleep, where to have sex life. This is our all endeavor. They stop all this endeavor. That is spiritual life. Stop everything. That is called... And I am going in a secluded place and thinking, "How many women I have hunted." What is this nonsense? Eh? And showing, "I have become very much advanced. I am leader." And my leading is I'm thinking of woman, that's all. And money.

This is not spiritual life. This is all cheating. Dhohka-bhaje they are called, dhohka-bhaje, cheaters. Don't be cheaters. Kṛṣṇa knows whether you are cheater or you are sincere. If you are sincere, then He will give you intelligence how you will make progress. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām... (aside:) Find out this verse.

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ
bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam
buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi ahaṁ
yena mām upayānti te
(BG 10.10)

To whom He gives direct instruction? Satata-yuktānām: one who is twenty-four hours busy in His service. Twenty-four hours, satata. Satata means... Read it.

Pradyumna:

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ
bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam
dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ
yena mām upayānti te
(BG 10.10)

"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."

Prabhupāda:. Yes. So Kṛṣṇa is within you. He knows whether you are cheater and whether you are sincere. So therefore He says, "Those who are sincere and twenty-four hours engaged in My service, I give them intelligence." What kind of intelligence? "To... As he may come back to Me, that kind of intelligence." Because that is our aim, back to home, back to Godhead.

So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to help you, Paramātmā. Sarvas... In another place it is said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15). Read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly, and be sincere and make your life successful. Don't be cheater. Read and follow, and Kṛṣṇa will help you, this life. Don't expect another life to prepare. "It is guaranteed human life?" somebody asking. Even if it guaranteed, why should you take the chance of another life? Finish this business in this life. Take help from Kṛṣṇa, take help from books, take from your spiritual master. Why another life? Another life... Suppose you get another human life. Is it guaranteed? You may fall down again. So my Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Finish all business in this life." Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). Finish this business of birth, death, old age and disease in this life. You can do that. This is our main business, not to make arrangement for eating, sleeping, mating and defending under different garb, under different pretext. That is not our business. Our main business is...

Therefore... Kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā (SB 1.5.18). There it is said, kālena vā te balināṁ balīyasā. Kāla, time, is very powerful. Time... In time everything can be done. In time you can become very happy, and in time you can become very distressed, very much distressed, unhappy. Time can give you. And time is also Kṛṣṇa, kāla-rūpeṇa. When... You'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā that, in the Eleventh Chapter... I've just now forget that..., that "Who are You?" Kāla. The virāḍ-rūpa, the universal form seeing, Arjuna said, "Who are You, Sir?" So He said that "I am in the kāla-rūpa, in the form of time now. I have come to kill the all, all of you."

So therefore our business should be that this life should be utilized only for complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No other business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult. And it is not very difficult, not at all difficult. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). But it is difficult. It is very difficult to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. Those who are not accustomed, they'll become mad simply by chanting. It is not... You cannot imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, that "Now I shall go in a secluded place and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." It is not possible, sir. It requires great advancement of spiritual life when one can concentrate in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. It is not so easy.

Therefore, for neophytes, we must have many engagements. In the neophyte stage, if you try to imitate the advanced stage, then it will be simply ludicrous. In the neophyte stage we must be always engaged. Kṛṣṇa has got different venues of rendering service. You can serve Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. Karmaṇā manasā vācā etāvaj janma-sāphalyaṁ dehinām iha dehiṣu. Karmaṇā manasā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā. Karmaṇā manasā, we have got three venues: by working, karmaṇā; by thinking, manasā; karmaṇā manasā vācā, and by speaking we can do things. Karmaṇā manasā vācā. So this tridaṇḍa-sannyāsa means... There are four daṇḍas. One daṇḍa is the, what is called, symbol of his person. And the other three daṇḍas, they are symbol of his body, mind and speeches. This daṇḍa means, perhaps you know, do not know; you try to under... So karmaṇā, this daṇḍa, means "I have taken now vow to engage myself, even whatever assets I have got." So I have got my assets. I can work with my body, I can work with my mind and I can work by speaking. So tridaṇḍa-sannyāsa means one who has devoted his life, means his activities, his body and his speeches. That is tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa. Anyone who has devoted his mind, his body and his speeches for the service of the Lord, he is sannyāsī. Sannyāsī does not mean simply changing the dress and thinking otherwise. No. Sannyāsī, anyone, it does not matter whether the dress is changed or not, if one is fully engaged by his body, mind and words, sa sannyāsī.

Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1), Kṛṣṇa says. Who is sannyāsī? Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. "I shall speak for Kṛṣṇa." Then what profit you'll get? "No matter what is profit, I shall speak for Kṛṣṇa. That's all." Sa sannyāsī, Kṛṣṇa says. "This is my duty, kāryam." Kāryam means duty. "It is my duty to speak for Kṛṣṇa only. That's all. I am not going to speak anything." He's a sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma... Now, if you engage some lawyer to speak for you in the court, "Immediately bring me two thousand dollar." He'll charge. But a sannyāsī, he'll speak twenty-four hours for Kṛṣṇa, no expectation of profit. That is sannyāsī. Twenty-four hours engaging the body for Kṛṣṇa's work—he's a sannyāsī. Twenty-four hours thinking of Kṛṣṇa—he's a sannyāsī. This is sannyāsī. No other business. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma... Everyone is working for his personal benefit, "How much money I shall get? How much name and fame and reputation I shall get?" For his personal profit. And that is material. That is material. As soon as you work for your personal benefit, that is material. And as soon as you work for Kṛṣṇa's benefit, that is spiritual. That's all. This is the distinction between material and spiritual. Everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa.

So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific, authorized. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. We have got so many literature. Don't waste a single moment. Kālena. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, the moral instructor... He's not spiritual instructor, but moral in... But he has said that āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ. One moment of your life, if it is wasted without any profit, just imagine how much loss you have suffered. Because you cannot get back one moment of your life again even if you are prepared to pay millions of dollars. That you cannot get back. Nineteen seventy-four, 19th January, passed—you cannot get it back again. If you..., any rich man comes forward, "Please get me back again 1974, 19th January," "No, sir, that is not possible." Any price you offer, it is not possible. So just imagine, if we waste our time, how much loss we are suffering. We calculate loss and gain. So don't waste time.

Kāla, kāla is very... Yoga system means to save time. The whole process, mechanical process, of yoga, mystic power, means to save time. We have got a limited duration of life. Suppose one is destined to live for... Utmost they will live, anyone, but nobody goes to live for hundred years—say, seventy, eighty, sixty or something like that. Gradually it is reducing, and it will reduce twenty to thirty years. That will be duration of life, because people are becoming more and more sinful. So that is fixed up. A body is given to us by the superior power, and the duration of life is also fixed up. Even the greatest scientist, he cannot increase a moment's time for his life. That is not possible. A moment's life. Professor Einstein was a great scientist, but he could not find out any means that instead of living for, say, eighty years, he could live eighty years, one day. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Your destiny, duration of life—fixed up. And how it is fixed up? The machine is breathing. Machine is breathing. Just like the clock goes on, tick-tick, tick-tick, tick-tick. As soon as the tick-tick stops, then whole thing is lost. Similarly, our breathing is going on, tick-tick, tick-tick, tick-tick, a fixed time. Just like you wind your clock, so that winding will help, tick-tick, for a certain duration of time, say, twenty-four hours. Similarly, there is winding in our life, a spring. That "tick-tick" means this breathing. So if you... Breathing exercise means if you can stop breathing, then you increase your life. That is called samādhi. No more breathing. That is Vedic, I mean to say, yogic success. Stop breathing. There are yogīs, perfect... Not these gymnastic-wālā, no. Real yogīs. They can remain without breathing for days together. That means the days he does not breathe, so much time saved: he increases his life. Suppose daily if he stops breathing for three hours, that means daily he saves three hours time. So in hundred years about..., so many, so much time. So in this way, the yogī can live for three hundred years, four hundred years, six hundred years. Still there are yogīs. This is called yogic success.

So kāla, to control... You cannot control time. Just like if you have got one hundred dollars, if you deposit in a bank, you will get some interest, but you cannot make without any endeavor two hundred dollars. No, that is not possible. But if you don't spend it, then the hundred dollar remains. Similarly, your duration of life is there, and it is being wasted by breathing. If you can control the breathing process, then your life can be increased. This is yogic... But after all, we are under the full control of time. Kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. That is explained here. Kālena vā te balināṁ balīyasā. Very, very strong. There is no power... Your so-called scientific power... You cannot struggle against the influence of time. So save time. Save time.

Another process is, save time, if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra then the time is not lost. Time is not lost. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, read book, Kṛṣṇa book. Any moment, any time you spend for thinking of Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, chanting for Kṛṣṇa, eating for Kṛṣṇa, dancing for Kṛṣṇa, that time is saved. That time is saved. Therefore it is recommended, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva... (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, by yoga practice, it is not... How many men can actually practice yoga? It is all farce. This is possible. Even a child can take part, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya. All glories... (break)

Sudāmā: Questions, Prabhupāda? (microphone makes feedback noise)

Prabhupāda: (commenting on mike) Purchase something better. Instead of diverting your attention always, pay little more. In Bengali it is said, sastarthin abastra(?): "If you purchase something cheap, it will always give you trouble." Better spend once, costly things, nice things. That is...

Sudāmā: Any questions?

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Devotee (1): Was Lord Jesus in pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: These are old questions, always asked. What is that, huh? What is that question?

Satsvarūpa: Was Lord Jesus in pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He also taught about God. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. So why Jesus? Anyone speaks... But one must know. There are degrees. Just like a person... Somebody knows to some extent, other knows to some extent, other knows to some extent. Or somebody understands to some extent. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means complete understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Just like there are steps: if you want to go to the 104th floor, there are so many steps. So everyone is going, aiming, to that 104th floor, but one has covered ten steps, one has covered twenty, another hundred, like that. The aim is the same, but you cannot say that one who has already covered one hundred steps, he is as good as one who has covered two steps. There is that difference. Here is a person who has covered only two steps; here is another person who has covered fifty steps; here is another person who has covered hundred steps—suppose you have to fulfill five hundred steps. So proportionately, that is the position. But the steps are already there. So any religious system—it doesn't matter Hindu religion or Christian religion or Muhammadan religion—it is the question of how the followers are covering the steps. They are going on the same staircase, but it is the question of...

So ultimate success is... That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6): "The highest perfection is that when you understand God and you are in love with God." That is success: you are in love in God. It doesn't matter how we have learned to love God, either Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan, but if you have got that success, that you have learned how to love God, then your life is successful. Then there are different stages of loving platform, and when you love Kṛṣṇa as Rādhārāṇī did... That is not possible, but that is the aim, and that is the highest perfection. But the beginning is love, how you are in love with God, the śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. So unless you come to that... If you love these material things, then you should know that you are not in love with God. If you are in love with God, then you'll forget material love. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti, love of Godhead, the symptom is that he's no more in love with material things. That is the test. You cannot... Just like you cannot love two persons. That is divided. One love concentrated, that is perfect love. Similarly, another example is given that we are all hankering after love. Because we do not find whom to love, therefore we place our love even cats and dogs. We love a dog. Anyone who has no other object to love—no children, no family, no wife—all right, keep a cat, keep a dog. But love is there.

So that love is deserved for Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So more we learn how to love the Supreme Lord, that is perfection of life. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. And what kind of love? Ahaituky apratihatā: that love is not motivated, that "I want this thing; therefore I shall love." Here in this material world the so-called love, lust, is motivated: "I'll get so much sense gratification; therefore I love a boy or a girl." That is not love; that is lust. Love means without any motive. Without any motive. Ahaitukī. And that, that love cannot be checked by any material impediments. Ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā samprasīdati (SB 1.2.6). If you can reach that love of Godhead, then you'll feel, "Oh, I am so fortunate." Otherwise we remain unfortunate. So love is there everywhere. Even in cats' and dogs' love there is love. But the perfection is when you actually find out the person to love and you actually do it, that is perfection.

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, you stated that on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra all the warriors who were dying in the presence of Kṛṣṇa, they all gained liberation. So I'm wondering... Each one of us has within our heart also the representative of Kṛṣṇa. So when we die, why is not everyone liberated?

Prabhupāda: But you have no sense of Kṛṣṇa. You have no sense of Kṛṣṇa. Or actually you do not die. That is another thing. This death means in the... That is described in the Bhāgavatam: those who die before Kṛṣṇa, they attain their original position, svarūpa. Svarūpa. So that is real success. Otherwise, there is no death. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). It is not death; when our body is destroyed, that does not mean we are dead. You are spirit soul, I am spirit soul, every one of us, but we have no death. That is another illusion. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). This so-called death, it is not death. Dhīra, one who knows, one who is sober, he knows that "This man or this boy or this father is dying... He's not dying. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ: he is just changing another body. He's changing an..." So actually we have no death. The change of body. So we are accepting this change of body as death. That is another illusion. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. One who is sober, he is not bewildered. He knows that... Suppose we are sitting here. We are sitting here, and after a few minutes we shall go away. That does not mean we are dead. We are in this apartment; we go to another apartment. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, nobody dies. It is change of body, from this body to another body. So we have no death. This is illusion. So what is your question?

Devotee (2): Well, simply that we have Kṛṣṇa within our heart, so why...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... Why within heart? Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). He is within the atom. Antar bahiḥ. Kuntī prayed... You have... I do not remember, but Kuntī's prayer, that "Kṛṣṇa, You are within and without present, but nobody can see You." This is Kṛṣṇa's position. Kṛṣṇa is within yourself, and Kṛṣṇa is without. But we do not see Kṛṣṇa. The example is, naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā (SB 1.8.19). Naṭa, a dramatic player, is dancing on the stage, and his son or relative seeing, he cannot understand that who is dancing. He's dancing before him, but because he's dressed in such a way that he cannot understand, "Oh, he's my brother" or "father" or..., "dancing." No. Therefore this example has been given, naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but because naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā, we cannot understand. This is our position. That requires knowledge. That requires knowledge. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, not only within. He's everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. So Kṛṣṇa can be seen only by person who has developed love for Kṛṣṇa; otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, everyone is seeing, but he cannot see. That is the difficulty.

Devotee (2): So all these warriors on the battlefield, they were all Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (2): So all these warriors on the battlefield, they were all Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes. At least for the time being, they knew that Kṛṣṇa has come. Suppose a prominent man comes in a big meeting. Is not everyone conscious of that person?

Devotee (2): Jaya.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you state that the spirit soul has form.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Otherwise, how is the material body grown to accommodate the spirit soul. Just like a shirt has no form, but when it's put on the body, it takes the shapes of the body. Does that mean that the spirit soul has the shape of the body that is accommodating it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got body, shape, very minute shape. That we cannot see, we cannot measure. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumeyam, or... What is that? You cannot measure. What is that word used? Aprameyam. Aprameyam. You cannot measure. But it has a form. How, what is the length and breadth of that form, that is not in your power. In your power, but not materially. That is... If you have got spiritual power, then you can measure it. And that measurement is also given in the śāstra. What is that? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Hair is a very small point. And divide it into ten thousand parts, that one part is the measure, magnitude of the soul.

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya
śatadhā kalpitasya ca
jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ
sa cānantyāya kalpate
(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9)

Everything is there. But you have no eyes to see, how to see one ten-thousandth portion of the top of the hair. You cannot see even the original top of the hair. So everything is there. We must have eyes. So Kṛṣṇa is also there. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). You were saying that Kṛṣṇa is within the heart, but who is seeing? Is it seen by the yogīs, bhakti-yogīs, because he has got love for Kṛṣṇa. A bhakta is always seeing, "Kṛṣṇa is within me."

Devotee (3): Does that mean that the spirit soul in my body is shaped like this body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spirit soul, he has got hands and legs and everything. That is body. Form means hands and legs, not without form. The same example: because I have got my form, therefore my dress... This body is described as dress. The dress has got two hands, just like your coat has got two hands; actually, coat, the cloth has no hands, legs. That is impossible. But because you have got your hands, your coat has assumed the hands. So this material dress... These hands and legs are there because originally we are spirit soul, we have got hands and legs. This is the proof that we are not formless. With form. Because this body has been described as dress, outward dress, different dress. Just like we are, somebody white, somebody yellow, somebody black, somebody... This is dress. But actually, we spirit soul, we are one. It is by dress we are fighting. "You are Englishman," "I am German," "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am that," "I am man," "I am woman." So many fighting on account of this dress. So when you become dressless, that is the spiritual platform. When you become dressless. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When we are free from all this designation dress. We are now covered by this designation dress: "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am..." So many, we have created dress. Just like innumerable quantity or quality of dresses, similarly, these are all dresses. So the spiritual platform means sarvopādhi-vinir..., when we become free from all this designation and fixed up in the understanding that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," that is our real position. Yes?

Devotee (4): If Kṛṣṇa's name, fame, form and paraphernalia, everything is equal, then is it not true that the devotee who worships the Lord in the temple, or, you know, sings authorized songs in the Vaiṣṇava songbook, is not that the same, equal level as chanting the mahā-mantra?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (4): Is chanting Vaiṣṇava songs on an equal level with mahā-mantra?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is also... But first of all understand what is the mahā-mantra. He kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, please accept me." This is the prayer. This is addressing, he kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, "Harā, please, now I am engaged in this material service; kindly accept me in Your service." This is meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. So a relationship, requesting something. So all these songs are like that, requesting relationship. Therefore they are the same. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Brs. 1.2.255). All right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)